Dwarven Weapon Training and Superior Weapons

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Given I'm one of the more vocal detractors and gave a suggested revision that it be flat out better than weapon focus at all tiers of play, giving a higher bonus, to two types of weapons, while still giving martial proficiency as well... you are mistaken.

Speaking of which, I replied to your posted revision with a variant on which I'd appreciate your input.

 

[DracoSuave]

eladrin swordmage ftw

you broke the game

 

[urzafrank]

Given I'm one of the more vocal detractors and gave a suggested revision that it be flat out better than weapon focus at all tiers of play, giving a higher bonus, to two types of weapons, while still giving martial proficiency as well... you are mistaken.

My point was not to compare DWT to Weapon Focus as you have done but to put it next to Action surge and other racial feats to see where the feat truly is. Further more when have a feat that gives +2/+3/+4 as you have suggested then that does put them directly ahead at the cost of one there 18 feats. a Dream for CharOpt guys but much less useful and/or clean for most groups.

Speaking of which, I replied to your posted revision with a variant on which I'd appreciate your input.

I did give input. Simply put not on par with the other racial feats.

 

[keterys]

My point was not to compare DWT to Weapon Focus as you have done but to put it next to Action surge and other racial feats to see where the feat truly is. Further more when have a feat that gives +2/+3/+4 as you have suggested then that does put them directly ahead at the cost of one there 18 feats. a Dream for CharOpt guys but much less useful and/or clean for most groups.

Action Surge is a good feat... but DWT is a better one for almost any character in heroic tier. The closest you can consider is that maybe a Warlord who uses it for Lead the Attack and the +3 makes the difference between hitting or not. DWT is, of course, flawed to be far better in heroic tier than later tiers, which is part of the complaint.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean about the Dream / less clean bit. The change I made is a far cleaner feat than the original. For CharOpt purposes it means they get +1 damage at all tiers (rather than just heroic) with axes/hammers and can choose whether it's worth a feat for superior weapon proficiency or not (it almost always is)

I did give input. Simply put not on par with the other racial feats.

There's not a lot of evidence to support that - look at almost every dragonborn feat for comparison. Many of the racial feats are highly specialized - a +3 attack is an awesome bonus, but on one attack every 2 fights, it's hard to compare that to '+1 damage on every attack you make' and declare it the obvious winner. Given that I know several gamers who would declare it the obvious loser, I'd say that they're pretty close. And Action Surge is one of the better racial feats (much like Dwarven Durability)

At any rate, Ulorian, your version is pretty similar to mine except 1 damage less for, say, dwarven clerics who use a martial weapon granted by the feat. It seems fine but I'm not sure it's worth the extra complication.

 

[DracoSuave]

Are you actually asserting that a Dwarf makes a sub-par Fighter from the perspective of damage output?

Because if so, you are just plain wrong. Dwarves have a host of abilities that give them more damage output as Fighters than most other races, including Dragonborn.

For example, Dwarf Fighters making opportunity attacks hit at least as often as Dragonborn (and probably a lot more often): Fighters add Wisdom to opportunity attack rolls, but Dragonborn get a Charisma bonus, and thus must trade off their Will defense against this class-based bonus. So the Dwarf either has a higher Will defense, or has a better attack bonus on opportunity attacks.

As another example, Dwarf Fighters get a bonus standard action every encounter -- can you guess what ability gives them this standard action? -- so now your numbers, which were already suspect since they don't include opportunity or combat challenge attacks, look like this:

Dwarf: 8(14)+17 = 112+17=129 * 20/20 = 129
Str-based: 9(13)+16 = 117+16=133 * 19/20 = 126.35

Yeah, that Dwarf sure needs a free damage boost.

-- N

I notice you didn't include the Dragonborn's Dragonbreath in there, or include calculations about how he doesn't Second Wind as often because healing works better on him; Or any other offensive ability.

Straw man. Move along.

I mean, no, I didn't include CC or OA damage because... and this is really important to make a note of... I didn't assume we were dealing with a fighter. See, I know that dwarves can be warlords or rangers (Mordenkrad beast ranger for the wtf) or barbarian or cleric. None of these classes have Combat Challenge so I didn't include it.

 

[Smeelbo]

I'd rather see Dwarven Weapon Training grant proficiencies and a flat +1 racial bonus, so it stacked with Weapon Focus and would thus scale at all three tiers, albeit at the cost of two feats, which seems appropriate.

Smeelbo

 

[keterys]

That would definitely fix the scaling problem, but I do think the superior weapons are still an issue.

That said, I do think it'd be interesting if DWT instead of Superior weapons and damage gave a +1 attack bonus with hammers and axes. That might please some of the people dismayed at dwarf comparisons to +2 strength, or those noting that lack of the +2 and +2 prof combine a little nastily.

 

[Mistwell]

A mechanical advantage need not be overpowering to be unbalanced. "Overpowering" is just the most extreme example of unbalanced.

Unless it is overpowered, it's not unbalanced in a material way. The game isn't about achieving perfection as far as balance. It's about not making anything overpowered, which would detract from the fun. I am not sure why I should care if something is technically unbalanced but not overpowered.

If my left shoe weighs a gram more than my right shoe, they are unbalanced, but I am not going to notice or care.

That seems to be the level of complaint we are talking about here. The feat is slightly more powerful than some other racial feats (but not all), but not so noticeable that it will overpower the character or break anything. So...meh, who cares?

 

[keterys]

If my left shoe weighs a gram more than my right shoe, they are unbalanced, but I am not going to notice or care.

Fair - what if your left shoe is a cowboy boot and your right shoe is a sandal? That's roughly how I feel about this feat - it gives the wrong things in the wrong way. It's amazing at heroic tier, but gets steadily worse as you get higher level. It gives unbound superior weapons, which isn't at all necessary to encourage its goal, etc.

will overpower the character or break anything. So...meh, who cares?

I care about a lot of things that don't break the game, yet still make it seem a lesser game to me

 

[urzafrank]

unless it is overpowered, it's not unbalanced in a material way. The game isn't about achieving perfection as far as balance. It's about not making anything overpowered, which would detract from the fun. I am not sure why i should care if something is technically unbalanced but not overpowered.

If my left shoe weighs a gram more than my right shoe, they are unbalanced, but i am not going to notice or care.

That seems to be the level of complaint we are talking about here. The feat is slightly more powerful than some other racial feats (but not all), but not so noticeable that it will overpower the character or break anything. So...meh, who cares?

qft