Dwarven Weapon Training and Superior Weapons

[urzafrank]

The detractors of DWT so as i have seen still refuse to accept that the racial feats in 4E are JUST better than the general ones. Not one person on this thread who is lined up against DWT has referred to and/or compared it to any of the other racial feats in the PHB. Every human i know has taken Action Surge cuz getting a big bonus to hit with your daily power(s) is REALLY good. Flaming weapon and Hellfire blood. The list goes on and on. If you want to compare apples to apples that is fine but please stop comparing them to limes

 

[Nifft]

Do the math. Seriously, DO the math. (...) Any argument about which does more damage without actual examination of the damage is null-and-void. And the only determination for brokenness with these feats is damage.

Are you actually asserting that a Dwarf makes a sub-par Fighter from the perspective of damage output?

Because if so, you are just plain wrong. Dwarves have a host of abilities that give them more damage output as Fighters than most other races, including Dragonborn.

For example, Dwarf Fighters making opportunity attacks hit at least as often as Dragonborn (and probably a lot more often): Fighters add Wisdom to opportunity attack rolls, but Dragonborn get a Charisma bonus, and thus must trade off their Will defense against this class-based bonus. So the Dwarf either has a higher Will defense, or has a better attack bonus on opportunity attacks.

As another example, Dwarf Fighters get a bonus standard action every encounter -- can you guess what ability gives them this standard action? -- so now your numbers, which were already suspect since they don't include opportunity or combat challenge attacks, look like this:

Dwarf: 8(14)+17 = 112+17=129 * 20/20 = 129
Str-based: 9(13)+16 = 117+16=133 * 19/20 = 126.35

Yeah, that Dwarf sure needs a free damage boost.

-- N

 

[Nifft]

The detractors of DWT so as i have seen still refuse to accept that the racial feats in 4E are JUST better than the general ones.

No, that's not the problem. If you read the thread, you'll see nobody complaining that DWT is better than Weapon Focus. That part is fine. In the context of the PHB (only), DWT is a fine feat.

The problem is that it's too open-ended. Feats that give an unlimited number of additional bonus feats are bad design.

Cheers, -- N

 

[catsclaw227]

As another example, Dwarf Fighters get a bonus standard action every encounter -- can you guess what ability gives them this standard action? -- so now your numbers, which were already suspect since they don't include opportunity or combat challenge attacks, look like this:

Dwarf: 8(14)+17 = 112+17=129 * 20/20 = 129
Str-based: 9(13)+16 = 117+16=133 * 19/20 = 126.35

Yeah, that Dwarf sure needs a free damage boost.

I think you are talking about Second Wind being a minor action for Dwarves (this opening up the standard for an attack power). But in my (purely anecdotal) experience, Second Wind isn't used every encounter. I've had many times when the PCs go two or three encounters without using it. Now, a fighter may do it more often, so that might offset it a bit, but not specifically.

 

[Nifft]

I think you are talking about Second Wind being a minor action for Dwarves (this opening up the standard for an attack power).

Bingo.

But in my (purely anecdotal) experience, Second Wind isn't used every encounter. I've had many times when the PCs go two or three encounters without using it. Now, a fighter may do it more often, so that might offset it a bit, but not specifically.

A non-Dwarf in a short fight can get away without using Second Wind. But the fight presented, which involved 20 rounds of melee attacks, didn't sound like a quickie.

For some groups, those 20 rounds worth of melee attacks might cover four fights. So feel free to amortize the Second Wind ability using that, rather than over one long fight.

Cheers, -- N

 

[urzafrank]

No, that's not the problem. If you read the thread, you'll see nobody complaining that DWT is better than Weapon Focus. That part is fine. In the context of the PHB (only), DWT is a fine feat.

The problem is that it's too open-ended. Feats that give an unlimited number of additional bonus feats are bad design.

Cheers, -- N

oh is that it. For real? that is just silly in system that allows retraining the above is such a baseless position. I mean who has ever seen the fighter who never takes a superior weapon feat run around with fully powered up magic versions of every weapon they have the skill to use? Not even in 3.0 or 3.5 did that happen and in 4E it is even less likely. guys come on you have to do better than that

 

[Danceofmasks]

Personally, I like the Dwarven and Eladrin Weapon Training Feats as they are. Neither race is strictly optimal for a warrior-type, and I think it's a very nice boost. Also, the Mordenkrads in the game, the better as far as I'm concerned.

-O

Eladrin Swordmage FTW

 

[Kordeth]

No, that's not the problem. If you read the thread, you'll see nobody complaining that DWT is better than Weapon Focus. That part is fine. In the context of the PHB (only), DWT is a fine feat.

The problem is that it's too open-ended. Feats that give an unlimited number of additional bonus feats are bad design.

Cheers, -- N

It's a very limited subset of "unlimited number of additional feats," though, isn't it? Consider that the most you'll ever actually get out of it is four bonus feats at any one time (Weapon Prof and quasi Weapon Focus for two different dual-wielded weapons). And unless your battlefields are littered with superior axes and hammers, the odds are a dwarf with DWT is going to do exactly what any other character does: Pick a superior axe or hammer he likes and stick with it. Sure, he has a tiny bit more flexibility if he does run across a different superior axe or hammer, but that's a pretty minor advantage--especially since all the non-dwarf has to do if he wants a new Superior Weapon Proficiency is retrain the feat.

 

[keterys]

The detractors of DWT so as i have seen still refuse to accept that the racial feats in 4E are JUST better than the general ones. Not one person on this thread who is lined up against DWT has referred to and/or compared it to any of the other racial feats in the PHB. Every human i know has taken Action Surge cuz getting a big bonus to hit with your daily power(s) is REALLY good. Flaming weapon and Hellfire blood. The list goes on and on. If you want to compare apples to apples that is fine but please stop comparing them to limes

Given I'm one of the more vocal detractors and gave a suggested revision that it be flat out better than weapon focus at all tiers of play, giving a higher bonus, to two types of weapons, while still giving martial proficiency as well... you are mistaken.

 

[DracoSuave]

Bingo.

A non-Dwarf in a short fight can get away without using Second Wind. But the fight presented, which involved 20 rounds of melee attacks, didn't sound like a quickie.

For some groups, those 20 rounds worth of melee attacks might cover four fights. So feel free to amortize the Second Wind ability using that, rather than over one long fight.

Cheers, -- N

No, it's a number that represents mean expected damage over 20 attacks. If you divide it by twenty you get the DPR, but guess what? It's easier to just calculate over 20 attacks, and gives you the same basis of comparison.

That said, you have a feat that makes Dwarves closer to other races in the DPR department (tho not equal) and the fact Dwarves are defensive in nature, not withstanding, doesn't change the fact that offensive races are -offensive.- Genasi built offensively can counter-attack or knock prone, dragonborn get the breath weapon AND better healing surges.. DWT is the only offensive Dwarf benefit, and it doesn't even make their normal attacks equivalent.