Dwarven Weapon Training and Superior Weapons

[keterys]

I'd rather it was left as is, with the exception that it doesn't grant proficiency with Superior weapons. If the character has or gains proficiency in a Superior axe or hammer, however, the +2 damage applies to it as well.

So, one problem with it now isn't really seen until epic level where it ends up worse than weapon focus for many dwarves. At which point, they could get weapon focus (blades) or polearms or whatever, and lose the racial affinity. I'm okay with the concept of giving a +1 damage no matter how it works out.

That said, I do think it's worth noting that the current free proficiencies are very helpful for, say, dwarven clerics who can use Mauls and Greataxes and throwing hammers/axes as a result. Even without it actually meaning they get a craghammer or an executioner axe.

 

[Rechan]

I personally think it's way too powerful, in the sense it makes dwarves The Best Weapon users. The hammers and axes are more powerful than the sword variants (They only sacrifice a +1 atk for all that variety and potency). Dwarves all ready are the strongest class, this tips them, imho, into outshining all the other races from a balance perspective.

On the flip side, I think it's great that Eladrin Soldier provides proficiency with all spears (including exotics). Namely because there aren't that many of them, and they aren't too strong, but still a nice benefit.

As far as the argument of "It's not as good as Weapon Proficiency", really, if you are at epic tier and want to squeak by an extra number, just retrain the feat out for the better one.

 

[keterys]

I personally think it's way too powerful, in the sense it makes dwarves The Best Weapon users.

Agreed.

The hammers and axes are more powerful than the sword variants (They only sacrifice a +1 atk for all that variety and potency).

You're undervaluing +1 attack for a lot of characters... but free superior weap prof, especially with multiple weapons, is at least equal to the free feat that humans get and probably better... and at heroic tier it's also better than weapon focus... so yeah.

On the flip side, I think it's great that Eladrin Soldier provides proficiency with all spears (including exotics). Namely because there aren't that many of them, and they aren't too strong, but still a nice benefit.

I'd rather it did it by name if it was going to do it - and I'd still rather other solutions. It is true it's less egregious, but that doesn't make it really good.

As far as the argument of "It's not as good as Weapon Proficiency", really, if you are at epic tier and want to squeak by an extra number, just retrain the feat out for the better one.

Sure, but why would dwarves suddenly in epic (and starting in paragon) stop using hammers and axes, in favor of other weapons? That doesn't really follow that well.

 

[Kzach]

It's flatly poor design, a shackle on exotic hammer and axe design. It's an imbalance between the core rules and the core rules plus AV. It's silly that dwarves shouldn't use warhammers and mauls and battleaxes, but should instead use "rare" and "variant" versions thereof.

It's not a shackle and nor is it silly if you view the rules as being second to the flavour of the setting and common sense.

I have no problem with exotic weapon design as long as it fits the flavour of the setting and works within the rules.

Every dwarf and their mother isn't going to be running around with a mordenkrad or execution axe because I'm the DM and I think that's just silly.

I guess I never view rules as being independent of a DM's ruling or the setting flavour. I will admit, however, that it is a common player reaction to demand something simply because the rules allow it.

 

[Eldorian]

Dwarves don't get a racial bonus to strength, and so far there are no classes that make weapon attacks using con or wis, so it seems that the "overpowered" dwarven feats in regards to weapons exist so that dwarves are still competitive to races with +2 str at classes like fighter.

Personally, I'd rather the feat scale with tier +2/+3/+4 AND grant proficiency.

Also, I wish Eladrin Soldier was a better option for fighters, but then again, Eladrin make excellent swordmages.

 

[Tenniel]

"overpowered" dwarven feats in regards to weapons exist so that dwarves are still competitive to races with +2 str at classes like fighter.

Concur. Eladrin swordmages get +2 int and eladrin soldier, but they gain no access to exotic swords (only exotic spears).

Also, while Dwarves gain a bag load of proficiencies you can only (well, mostly) use one weapon at a time.

 

[Baumi]

I think it's ok that they gain superior weapons.

Why would any martial weapon user take that feat paragon+ if they wouldn't get any additional advantage besides +2 damage? It also makes sense flavor-wise since dwarven were always proud about their superior craftsmanship, especially when it comes to their weapons (and armor). Just because these dwarven weapons are hard for a human to use, doesn't mean that it is the same for a dwarf, nor does superior mean that it is really exotic or rare.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

So, one problem with it now isn't really seen until epic level where it ends up worse than weapon focus for many dwarves. At which point, they could get weapon focus (blades) or polearms or whatever, and lose the racial affinity. I'm okay with the concept of giving a +1 damage no matter how it works out.

That said, I do think it's worth noting that the current free proficiencies are very helpful for, say, dwarven clerics who can use Mauls and Greataxes and throwing hammers/axes as a result. Even without it actually meaning they get a craghammer or an executioner axe.

I don't dislike your idea; I was merely presenting an alternative. Having said that, how about this variant on your version of the feat:

Dwarven Weapon Training [Dwarf]
Prerequisite: Dwarf
Benefit: You gain proficiency and a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls with Simple and Martial axes and hammers. At 11th level, this bonus increases to +2. At 21st level, it increases to +3.
Special: When attacking with: a) a Simple or Martial axe or hammer with which the character has proficiency through a means other than this feat or b) a Superior axe or hammer with which the character has proficiency, the feat bonus to damage increases by 1.

 

[urzafrank]

I don't dislike your idea; I was merely presenting an alternative. Having said that, how about this variant on your version of the feat:

Dwarven Weapon Training [Dwarf]
Prerequisite: Dwarf
Benefit: You gain proficiency and a +1 feat bonus to damage rolls with Simple and Martial axes and hammers. At 11th level, this bonus increases to +2. At 21st level, it increases to +3.
Special: When attacking with: a) a Simple or Martial axe or hammer with which the character has proficiency through a means other than this feat or b) a Superior axe or hammer with which the character has proficiency, the feat bonus to damage increases by 1.

This feat is not much better than Weapon Focus and not better for a dwarven fighter at all.......now when you compare this to Action Surge it is trash Comparing DWT to Weapon focus is just wrong based off of all the really powerful Racial feats in this game. Please do not compare it to racial abilities like the bonus feat for human but to other racial feats that enhance the usual flavor of said race

 

[Obryn]

Personally, I like the Dwarven and Eladrin Weapon Training Feats as they are. Neither race is strictly optimal for a warrior-type, and I think it's a very nice boost. Also, the Mordenkrads in the game, the better as far as I'm concerned.

-O