Dwarven Weapon Training and Superior Weapons

[Nifft]

Just because these dwarven weapons are hard for a human to use, doesn't mean that it is the same for a dwarf, nor does superior mean that it is really exotic or rare.

What Superior means is that a weapon is just plain mechanically better than other, similar, non-Superior weapons.

It's wrong to give away mechanical advantages to one race for no good reason.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

This feat is not much better than Weapon Focus and not better for a dwarven fighter at all.......now when you compare this to Action Surge it is trash Comparing DWT to Weapon focus is just wrong based off of all the really powerful Racial feats in this game. Please do not compare it to racial abilities like the bonus feat for human but to other racial feats that enhance the usual flavor of said race

The feat gives a Dwarven Fighter a +1 damage bonus over Weapon Focus, as per keterys' suggestion. Are you sure you understood my post?

 

[Puggins]

What Superior means is that a weapon is just plain mechanically better than other, similar, non-Superior weapons.

It's wrong to give away mechanical advantages to one race for no good reason.

But you're not giving a mechanical advantage to one race for free. The race has to use a feat to get that advantage. The advantage itself isn't particularly exotic- 99% of the time another race could duplicate it with two other feats, although the results vary according to tier.

(1) At heroic, the feat is better than two other feats combined. Definite Dwarven advantage.

(2) At paragon the feat is as good as two other feats combined.

(3) At Epic, the feat is inferior to two other feats combined.

Once the character hits 11th level, a Dwarf with this feat essentially gains Superior weapon proficiency for free- in other words, he gets a bonus feat. This is not exactly an overpowering advantage.

The variety available to the dwarf is a nigh-useless advantage. Really, is there ever a realistic point where a dwarf that can use two types of superior axes has an advantage over a human with the ability to use one type of superior axe? No adventurer is going to be investing in two +3 different weapons to carry around. The dwarven ranger can use two types at once, but you won't any sort of advantage in the numbers over a human ranger that is using two dwarven war axes. It's simply not a big deal- it makes for good flavor, is all.

A dwarven fighter or ranger simply doesn't have an overwhelming advantage over a human ranger- he's definitely better at wielding axes in the heroic tier, but he's no better at paragon and above. At that point he just has more flexibility in feat selection. Well, actually, he doesn't, since humans get an extra feat. But whatever- you know what I mean.

 

[Stalker0]

A lot of racial feats exists to allow races to play classes they aren't otherwise that suited to playing.

A dwarf fighter by himself isn't that great to a dragonborn fighter (dragon born get breath for marking, more healing on surges, and of course, the +2 to strength).

With a feat, the dwarf now rules in terms of damage, but he still has a weaker to hit, and of course is down a feat (so if the dragonborn took weapon focus the dwarf only wins because of the exotic weapon). But in that sense I think its just fine.

Even if more exotic weapons are released later on, if they balance with the previous exotic weapons then its fine. Generally having a variety of weapons one can use in dnd doesn't matter very often, you have your one good specialized weapon...and you stick with it.

 

[Nifft]

Once the character hits 11th level, a Dwarf with this feat essentially gains Superior weapon proficiency for free- in other words, he gets a bonus feat. This is not exactly an overpowering advantage.

A mechanical advantage need not be overpowering to be unbalanced. "Overpowering" is just the most extreme example of unbalanced.

Worse, the feat grants an open-ended benefit across a large class of weapons. What happens when the Complete Axemaster is published, along with a Brutal 2 throwing axe (which happens to be Superior)? Most PCs will need to decide if the new weapon is worth spending a feat on -- they must pay for the damage boost with a resource that cannot then be used on a different power boost.

Dwarves get both boosts for free.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Stalker0]

Dwarves get both boosts for free.

Cheers, -- N

What happens when new feats are published to do new things with a dragonborn's breath weapon. Doesn't' that mean the enlarged breath feat is even strong than it is now?

How about more powers that give player's AP. Doesn't that make action surge better?

How about new powers that do good conditions on a hit, doesn't that make the elf's reroll feat even better?

As far as feat's go, I definitely think the dwarf's feat is a must have if you are playing a dwarven fighter, but then again all of my players always pick up the superior weapon feat so I don't see a big change there. But the bottom line is racial feats are just better than normal feats in most cases. Action Surge for humans is freakin awesome. Lost in the crowd for halfings is great, elven precision makes one of the best racial abilities even better, etc.

 

[Nifft]

What happens when new feats are published to do new things with a dragonborn's breath weapon. Doesn't' that mean the enlarged breath feat is even strong than it is now?

Imagine if Enlarged Breath gave both benefits (larger breath plus all later feats, though you could only use one of those later feats at a time). Now we're on the same page regarding Dwarven Weapon Training.

Cheers, -- N

 

[keterys]

What if there were a dragonborn breath weapon feat that gave them all the benefits of all the dragonborn breath feats, but only, say, two at once. Would that be balanced?

Why do dwarves automatically get proficiency with Orc Axesmashers and Tribal Hawkaxes and Gnoll Flindhammers? Because someone made an easy mistake, based on what was in the PHB, and gave them superior weapon proficiency without realizing what it actually meant.

Oops. If you want dwarves to still get superior weapon proficiency with a couple dwarven weaopns, you could even go 'If you already have proficiency with all martial weapons, you gain proficiency with the Craghammer and Urgrosh' or whatever. Or those exotic weapons could have a tagline 'proficiency given by dwarven weapon proficiency'. The important thing is that it not be a catchall.

Not that I'm seeing how dwarven melee is so hurt by lack of superior weapons - they were one of the most popular before Adventurer's Vault came out, after all. Resistance to push, minor action second wind, Con bonus, hammer rhythm at paragon, etc.

 

[Obryn]

Worse, the feat grants an open-ended benefit across a large class of weapons. What happens when the Complete Axemaster is published, along with a Brutal 2 throwing axe (which happens to be Superior)? Most PCs will need to decide if the new weapon is worth spending a feat on -- they must pay for the damage boost with a resource that cannot then be used on a different power boost.

Dwarves get both boosts for free.

Cheers, -- N

I don't know that we'll see too many other Superior weapons, post-AV. I'm almost certain we won't see any new superior weapons that are unbalanced with the current superior weapons, otherwise (imho) Dwarven Weapon Training will be the least of our problems.

I like that it gives added flavor to dwarves. It's basically a must-have feat, imho, for any dwarven fighter or cleric, but I'm happy with a first-level dwarf fighter using a Mordenkrad for huge damage.

-O

 

[keterys]

I like that it gives added flavor to dwarves. It's basically a must-have feat, imho, for any dwarven fighter or cleric, but I'm happy with a first-level dwarf fighter using a Mordenkrad for huge damage.

But it would make you unhappy if he'd spent a weapon proficiency feat to use that weapon instead, like a human or elf or orc or whatever? Would it also make you unhappy if he were instead using a maul or greataxe, because those aren't dwarfy weapons anymore after AV?