Forked Thread: Healing Surges: Let's see them in Action!

[roguerouge]

Let's have some more examples then. So far I'm 10 to 2. Let's run up the lead a bit before I go to bed.

Uhh... I've posted 15 counter-examples. One person argued that Frodo's covered under a disease mechanic and you've argued that John Constantine's lung cancer doesn't count (because he gets his ass kicked when he's healthy too?). But it's hardly 10-2... if you want to win the thread that you posted, rather than actually engage in an exchange of ideas and data, for some weird reason.

If you, as the OP, are going to ignore people who respond to your direct question, then you should have made it a blog post. That's where monologues go.

 

[Obryn]

In addition to the four Whedonverse examples I gave up thread, at the end shots of season two, Giles (torture victim, broken fingers), Willow (head trauma, in wheel chair), and Xander (broken arm) all remain severely wounded several hours after the big battles. Spike spends the latter half of season two in a wheelchair, although he's faking in the last few episodes.

Edit: More examples include Cordelia falling through the floor and being impaled on a rebar. She gets hospitalized and pops stitches the next episode when she gets pushed. Riley Finn also gets severely injured in season four, which keeps him wincing and out of at least one fight as "Buffy" says "I can't use you." before heading into the battle.

So there's clearly a mix of incidents that would and would not fit the healing surge mechanic.

In fairness, I don't think lasting injuries like this fit an HP mechanic at all.

In 3e, maybe it'd some house-rule for ability score damage from injury that causes a long recovery and actual mechanical effects. In 4e, maybe it'd be a houseruled disease track mechanism for tracking long-term injuries. Neither one looks like "hit points" to me.

-O

 

[Kraydak]

...
For those quibbling with my examples, perhaps a better use of your time would be to find counter examples. After all, like I said, it's perfectly in keeping with 4e mechanics for Frodo to burn his healing surges and then turn around and claim it was his armor that saved him.

And, "piles o' hit points" doesn't really work either. Unless you going to start claiming double digit levels for these characters of course.
...

Double (or triple) digit hp, yes.

What does it take to find a difference between healing surges and piles-o-hp? The easiest is the full recovery time. With healing surges, you are completely uninjured after 1 night. Still bruised, not running on healing surges. Note that if the damage you are taking is subdual damage, then you will be fully recovered under no-healing surges as well. So if you have been getting into fist-fights, there is only one way to distinguish between the two systems (see below).

If encounters are short, the only possible line to draw is that, if you get beaten down *completely*, *once*, with healing surges, you are still a going concern (you have at least 1 surge to stand up with).

So, the only possible counterexamples are: ANY story where someone so much as feels the exertion the next day. ANY story where someone gets knocked out (but not killed) and stays down. That covers just about all stories in which either someone gets knocked out or that cover a long enough time span after combat, no?

 

[Ktulu]

Mal from Firefly/Serenity uses a healing surge or two.

"Do you know what your sin is, Mal?"
"Oh, hell, I'm a fan of all seven. But right now, I'm gonna have to go with Wrath."

Now, *after* those big fights Mal and the rest of the crew are often barely standing and need to rest and/or see the doc. But it does get them through the fight.

Sounds to me like the extended-extended resting is a story thing. Think about it. When the heroes need to keep moving, they keep moving. When the battle's been won and the day saved, then they go home and lick their wounds. I think the healing system of 4e perfectly represents that. There is no, "We cannot continue the fight without 2-3 days of rest". Instead, the characters push on, suffer more wounds that would stop a wild boar and to quote a great phrase, "sleep when they're dead".

 

[Obryn]

So, the only possible counterexamples are: ANY story where someone so much as feels the exertion the next day. ANY story where someone gets knocked out (but not killed) and stays down. That covers just about all stories in which either someone gets knocked out or that cover a long enough time span after combat, no?

Full HP does not mean "Not bruised, battered, or injured in any way"

It means "I am at my full fighting capacity, perhaps despite some pain."

There's nothing saying a character has zero bruises or scrapes; or that he might not have a sprain. He could have serious injuries but a whole lot of willpower. Full HP just means that any of those negative conditions won't make a difference in the outcome of a fight.

-O

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Sounds to me like the extended-extended resting is a story thing. Think about it. When the heroes need to keep moving, they keep moving. When the battle's been won and the day saved, then they go home and lick their wounds. I think the healing system of 4e perfectly represents that. There is no, "We cannot continue the fight without 2-3 days of rest". Instead, the characters push on, suffer more wounds that would stop a wild boar and to quote a great phrase, "sleep when they're dead".

Which is well and fine for some people. Others view movies and novels as inspiration and not something for direct emulation. Some folks want a more stimulationist approach. I for one want a more simulationist approach and don't want my RPGs so directly emulating how fictional characters work so that my character is not being railroaded through the DMs vision of how the plot should unfold and I am not rushed along at the speed of plot.

 

[Ktulu]

Which is well and fine for some people. Others view movies and novels as inspiration and not something for direct emulation. Some folks want a more stimulationist approach. I for one want a more simulationist approach and don't want my RPGs so directly emulating how fictional characters work so that my character is not being railroaded through the DMs vision of how the plot should unfold and I am not rushed along at the speed of plot.

But it's a game about fictional characters doing heroic deeds.

For example: In 3e, I ran my players through the Forge of Fury. After the first battle, they were out of healing from the cleric, out of potions, and two were unconscious due to some bad rolls and a couple crits.

The players escaped, ran back down the hills and to a town for healing and restocking.

A few rooms down the dungeon, they fought stirge and lost a ton of con, were low on hp, and out of healing.

Back down to the town for more healing (end of session one)

(session two) They went back up, fought through much of the forge and got in a battle with the Ogre leading the upper area. One character died, and two were unconscious. The other 2 were conscious, but out of hp healing and such.

They rested in the room, regaining their level +con mod in hp. (and were attacked by the nearby orcs who were patrolling later) and were still low after the attack. Opting, once again, to head back down, now that the cleric was dead, for more healing. (end of session 2)

By session 3, the players were no longer interested in going through the forge and gave up.

Because I liked the forge, I ran it again in 4e.

Though they took a beating, but were nearly through it by the end of the first session. They were able to rest in a room for a few hours, keeping guard (used a skill challenge to have them hiding out), and they moved on.


Now, opinions differ, but the 4e run was insanely more exciting and fun. The players enjoyed going through the dungeon and were able to push on, despite suffering some beatings.

I think the game should model a heroic-style and less realism. When I need the realism I can add it in narrative. I don't want my players being fragile and easily killed/maimed in the opening encounters.

Your games may differ, and that's cool, so long as your players enjoy it.

 

[Obryn]

I for one want a more simulationist approach and don't want my RPGs so directly emulating how fictional characters work so that my character is not being railroaded through the DMs vision of how the plot should unfold and I am not rushed along at the speed of plot.

Do you care to explain how healing surges lead to railroading?

-O

 

[ExploderWizard]

The problem with using examples from TV and movies as examples of how the healing mechanics work is that by thier very nature, only screen time is accounted for. Unless the DM waves his wand and says that X amount of time passes, the PC's are "onstage" the whole time.

A movie character can suck it up and keep fighting after taking a lot of abuse which is expected. When the director calls cut, the story ends and the character presumably gets a well deserved rest. Events don't always happen like that in a roleplaying game. PC's sometimes have to get the job done while at less than 100% effectiveness. 100% effectiveness in combat is purely mathematical. Saying that a PC is "banged up" is absolutely meaningless unless there is statistical support for the condition.
Is it ok if a PC keeps fighting after reaching 0 hp? Why not, thats only stats, I want my PC to keep fighting because it will be better for the story. Its the same as saying " Im hurting" while having your only measurable measure of well being at full capacity.

 

[Ktulu]

Do you care to explain how healing surges lead to railroading?

-O

I think he's meaning from my comment on the players keep going because they have to.

However, he's taking the stance that the players would not enjoy the urgency and would feel railroaded.

However, if the plot was already in place that the players had until sunrise on the third day to save the princess, then a singular critical hit should not halt the players while they wait for the rogue to gain enough HP to continue.