On the matter of half-orcs

[S'mon]

What makes you think it worked that way? Those female orcs are pretty strong, and after a hard day of raiding...

Well, Henry, when a daddy human and a mommy orc.... Only if daddy human isn't aroused by mommy orc, it probably isn't going to work.

I guess if there were some cultural reason why female orcs wanted to be bearing half-orc children they could mate with human slaves.

As for Tolkien, what on Erda did you all think happened in Saruman's breeding pits? I was utterly gobsmacked when I saw Peter Jackson's "orc cyst" thingummy. Tolkien was too discrete to detail most of the atrocities committed by orcs, but I never doubted what that was indicating forced orc-human interbreeding.

 

[delericho]

Yep. The rape background in 1e always seemed like a strange addon, given the Tolkien roots of the race. And it's not only rather silly (every half-orc is a product of rape?), it's also inappropriate for a game in a world where a staggering percentage of women are sexually abused.

It's also not in the books. I just checked the 1st Edition Players Handbook and Monster Manual, and also the 2nd Edition Monstrous Manual (no half-orcs in the 2nd Ed PHB), and there's nothing about rape at all. The books state that orcs will crossbreed with just about anything (except elves, with whom they cannot), but does not mention how this would come about.

 

[M.L. Martin]

As for Tolkien, what on Erda did you all think happened in Saruman's breeding pits? I was utterly gobsmacked when I saw Peter Jackson's "orc cyst" thingummy. Tolkien was too discrete to detail most of the atrocities committed by orcs, but I never doubted what that was indicating forced orc-human interbreeding.

Some of the last writings by the Professor on the origin of the Orcs and their kind go into some of the difficulties and horrors associated with the project:

[quote="Morgoth's Ring", J.R.R. Tolkien, p. 418-419]
It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents could be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long aftewards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: the interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile.[/quote]

The problem, IMO, is that D&D has orcs without the background Tolkien gave them--Tolkien's Orcs are monsters in the literal sense, Elves (or possibly Men or hominid beasts) warped in body and mind by the dark arts of Morgoth, Sauron, Saruman, and others who have rebelled against Eru and His Music. D&D orcs are typically on the same order of being and nature as any other sapient race, and thus not necessarily driven towards evil in the same way that Morgoth warped the Orkor.

 

[Spatula]

It's also not in the books. I just checked the 1st Edition Players Handbook and Monster Manual, and also the 2nd Edition Monstrous Manual (no half-orcs in the 2nd Ed PHB), and there's nothing about rape at all. The books state that orcs will crossbreed with just about anything (except elves, with whom they cannot), but does not mention how this would come about.

Hm, and yet I definitely remember that subtext being present back in the 80's. I wonder where the idea came from, then.

 

[delericho]

Hm, and yet I definitely remember that subtext being present back in the 80's. I wonder where the idea came from, then.

It's probably from the fan community (and quite possibly Dragon).

And, to be honest, it is the most likely explanation for a (small) half-orc population. Human history makes for some pretty grim reading in places (particularly where the sacking of cities is concerned), and when you throw in a race that's actively Evil (and not merely of any alignment as are humans), things are likely to be worse.

So, WotC are probably correct in their assertion that half-orcs "imply a disturbing backstory". Perhaps that really is enough to justify pulling them from the game... although I really doubt this 'new' backstory will actually change anything.

(Besides: probably the most iconic half-elf in D&D fiction is Tanis Half-elven from Dragonlance, who is a product of rape... and that's a stated, not implied, backstory.)

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Given the human propencity to be attracted to all kinds of bizarre and unusal people/activities, I don't know why half-orcs can't come from consensual behaivior. I know why rape was originally used as on origin, but given what you can find on the internet these days I think people are becoming more accustomed to alternate lifestyles and activities such that consensual Human/Orc mating wouldn't be that surprising.

There are might be large communities of people doing that online, but as a percentage of the population, they're probably vanishingly small.

Without the ability to read minds, I can't tell if people I've gamed with are like that, but if they are, they're too embarrassed to say so.

On another note, why would orcs rape humans? Humans probably look ugly to orcs.

 

[13garth13]

On another note, why would orcs rape humans? Humans probably look ugly to orcs.

'Cause rape tends to be a crime of inflicting violence against another person in order to build a feeling of psychological dominance (horribly stripping someone of their dignity is a fairly dominating act)....I will grant that (no research btw, just gut instinct, so YMMV) profoundly unattractive people are statistically less likely to be raped than those considered "desirable" by a perpetrator, but prison rapes, rapes of elderly women etc. bear witness to the fact that an act of non-consensual sex is really only the vehicle by which the violence is inflicted in order to inflate the rapist's ego/sense of control.

But this is a fairly uncomfortable topic for many (and I was a youth worker in an inner city region for too long to be blase about the topic) and if this post skirts dangerously close to Grandma's rule, then I will delete whatever the mods feel is inappropriate.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[Desdichado]

I find the argument that D&D needs more rape to be completely baffling and a little nauseating.

Maybe Kzach is a big George RR Martin fan?

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think I'm more disturbed by the tendency to believe that half-orcs can only come about via rape (and the tendency to believe that half-elves NEVER are).

If you can have half-anythings, any justification you use for one can be applied to all of them.

 

[Felon]

So, I've read the PHB2 will have gnomes, half-orcs, devas, and goliaths. Has the fifth race been disclosed yet?

The reason is, I'm wondering if we'll orcs as a PHB race at some point. Orcs have already been given a civilized facet in Forgotten (Many-Arrows). I'm thinking there's an attempt to nudge orcs into a more player-friendly area, so all those WoW gamers can get their horde on.