A couple abilities in Martial Power seem WAY too good...

[urzafrank]

when it comes to the BRV if the DM is lazy with his encounters it is very very strong but if you do what the DMG tells you to do then it is quite balanced at that point. Meaning you should not have any encounter with just soldiers and brutes

 

[Regicide]

Now the BRV Fighter has to keep track of two pools of THP.

No, there is only one pool. Once gained all temporary HPs are the same no matter the source.

 

[urzafrank]

The BRV makes Temp HP more of a headache than before, but some of it is down to interpretation.

Pre-MP it was rather simple. THP never stacked, so whenever you gained THP and already had some, you simply asked which was the higher number: your old ones or the new ones, and that became you new THP total.

Now the BRV Fighter has to keep track of two pools of THP. The first one works as before, and includes THP gained from the first part of the class feature (i.e. being hit) and from any powers or other sources that don't have the Invigorating keyword. So if, for example, your 18 Con fighter is hit in round 1 and gains 4 THP from that, then gets hit again in round 2 by a weak attack that only does 2 damage, he does not end up with 6 THP, this pool is simply "topped up" at 4 again. And if he used a power like Unstoppable and ended up with a lot more than 4 THP, then this class feature would not come into play at all until the pool was brought below 4.

However, this same character can get another 4 THP each round he hits with an Invigorating power, and these have to be kept track of in a separate pool, since per the second class feature, they stack with any other THP. Now, the keyword limits this to happening once per turn, but a really literal reading of the class feature would let them stack with each other. It says "stack with any other temporary hit points you already have", without specifying that they need to be from another source.

As DM, I would quickly nip this in the bud and make the ruling that you can't accumulate THP in this pool, but that it also tops off at 4.

What I'm less certain of is the situation where the BR Fighter has 4+4 THP and is hit for less than 8. Which pool/s do you subtract the damge from? I think I would let the player choose, because that puts a tactical decision in the player's hands.

you and a few others have had this confused by thinking that there are two pools of THP for the BRV fighter. This is incorrect. You simply have one pool when THP go in and you are a BRV fighter you ask one question "did these THP come from an invigorating power?" If yes add them to the total if no then like any other THP ask another question which is "is this more than the amount of THP i already have?" If yes reset the total to that number if no then ignore them. It is that simple

 

[Bolongo]

you and a few others have had this confused by thinking that there are two pools of THP for the BRV fighter. This is incorrect. You simply have one pool when THP go in and you are a BRV fighter you ask one question "did these THP come from an invigorating power?" If yes add them to the total if no then like any other THP ask another question which is "is this more than the amount of THP i already have?" If yes reset the total to that number if no then ignore them. It is that simple

Of course, that is simpler, but it leads to Invigorating THP being cumulative. Which is precisely the problem I wanted to avoid, it being unbalanced, overpowered and a really really cheap trick.

 

[urzafrank]

Of course, that is simpler, but it leads to Invigorating THP being cumulative. Which is precisely the problem I wanted to avoid, it being unbalanced, overpowered and a really really cheap trick.

The invigorating THP being cumulative is not that strong at most levels against a balanced encounter as laid out in the DMG.

 

[DonAdam]

It's not the cumulative THP that's the problem, its the effective DR vs. melee and close attacks. It means that my melee monsters--even when they're mixed with ranged monsters--are wasting attacks by going after the fighter.

Cumulative THP does gunk up the elegance of the standard rules, but it's not really a balance problem.

But still banned in any games I run, because it steps on the barbarian's toes.

Niche protection isn't just a good idea, its the law.

 

[UltimaGabe]

My concern is NOT that the Fighter could amass a billion temporary hit points at once. My concern is that, for every attack after the first, the fighter suddenly has unbeatable DR against all melee and close attacks. A dwarven fighter with BRV could easily be taking half damage to all melee attacks after the first (assuming an average of 10 damage per hit). There is NO WAY WHATSOEVER that this is balanced to a +1 to hit (even if you ignore or house rule all other benefits of BRV). I don't care how hard bonuses to hit are to obtain in 4e- as a previous poster said, take any boss of an adventure, take away a +1 to hit, and give them BRV instead. See how much more powerful they are.

 

[0-hr]

Now the BRV Fighter has to keep track of two pools of THP. The first one works as before, and includes THP gained from the first part of the class feature (i.e. being hit) and from any powers or other sources that don't have the Invigorating keyword. .

I've been playing a Battlerager for a few sessions now and the record keeping doesn't work like that. I track hit points and temp hit points (my CON is 18) like this:

- If I get hit in melee or close, I take damage and then set my temp hit points to 4 if it is lower than 4.

- If I make an Invigorating Attack, then I increase my temp hit points by 4.


That's all there is too it. It's just one pool of temp hit points. That stacking vs non stacking only comes into play when you gain them. After that, there is no reason to track where they came from. I've even found that I rarely have to erase my temp hit points when I get hit because I'm often at 4 temp and get hit for more than that. The result is that I lose the 4 temp, take the remainder, and then reset temp to 4. Then the next critter (and the next) do the same thing. No need to even erase that 4 in the temp hit point column


Also, if I weren't a battlerager-type fighter, I would have a higher Strength (because I would not need the super CON) and I would be using a sword rather than an axe. So, in reality, we're looking at a difference of 3 to hit, not just one. I'd also be wearing armor better than chain, and would have chosen powers that are better than then invigorating ones. It's not just a matter of choosing battlerage vigor instead of the +1 to hit with a weapon - it's a completely different build strategy, making the cost higher than just at single bonus to hit.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Also, if I weren't a battlerager-type fighter, I would have a higher Strength (because I would not need the super CON) and I would be using a sword rather than an axe. So, in reality, we're looking at a difference of 3 to hit, not just one. I'd also be wearing armor better than chain, and would have chosen powers that are better than then invigorating ones. It's not just a matter of choosing battlerage vigor instead of the +1 to hit with a weapon - it's a completely different build strategy, making the cost higher than just at single bonus to hit.

You don't have to do any of those things. Indeed, if the BR was FORCED to fight in Chainmail, not to use a shield and to use axes or hammer, it might be balanced.

He'd get crazy temp hp but be at -2 (or more) to hit, -3 to AC and -2 Reflex over a sword and board fighter. Maybe that's balanced.

But as is, you shouldn't go chain for a +1 to damage at any rate. +1 to damage for -1 to AC is a sucker's tradeoff anyway.

Considering you will lose +1 to hit, it's even logical to keep using a sword. After all, hitting with crushing surge and the like to stack THP is a concern.
You don't even have to sacrifice your strenght.

You can stay in scale, use a bastard sword as before and take 14 con like the typical fighter. Just take the improved battle vigor feat. You now crush the identically built fighter by having identical stats except for a -1 to hit in exchange for gaining lots of temp hp. You'll hit almost as much. In a typical encounter, you can easily go the whole combat without missing by 1 but a fighter almost never go the whole fight without getting hit. So imagine these two identical fighters in the same encounter, one BRV, one not. One dishing slightly increased damage (which can only be observed in the long run and might not come up at all in the encounter) while the other is much harder to bring down. Even at 3hp per hit, it means that when the standard fighter is going down, the other still has at least one, probably two to three solid hit in him (which, btw, gives him a chance to do a few more attacks and bumps up his damage in the long run on par or even over that of the weapon talent fighter).

They don't seem balanced to me.

---

To balance out the Battle rager without getting rid of the feature altogether, I would force them in lighter armor, get rid of the 'You get THP when you get hit' mechanic and replace it with 'You get THP when you kill stuff'. The rager would get THP either when he kills an opponant.

It would force them to focus on offense. That's more rager.

Because another thing I hate about the current rager is that he doesn't behave at all like a rager; he's just the ultimate obstacle. He plays like a rock. He has no incentive to run around agressively on the battlefield to kill stuff.

 

[FadedC]

when it comes to the BRV if the DM is lazy with his encounters it is very very strong but if you do what the DMG tells you to do then it is quite balanced at that point. Meaning you should not have any encounter with just soldiers and brutes

Actually you'd have to avoid having any significant number of soldiers, brutes, lurkers, skirmishers and many controllers as well.

But yeah the class is perfectly balanced as long as the DM ignores 90% of the MM when designing his encounters.