D&D 4E Paladins - The first 4e class to fail

[Artoomis]

...The other classes need to take some hits too. A wizard that ends his day with 6 healing surge has essentially wasted a chunk of the party's ressource. In that sense, the Paladin's ability to lock down the toughest foe on the field is usually sufficient. You just have to get the squishier PC to man up a bit and realize they aren't that squishy.

I run a wizard and, frankly, any day that I survive without taking any hits is a good day. If my character gets hit he is typically quite astonished and view the situation as unacceptable.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

Why would the paladin need either feat? HBO is rather lackluster to begin with, and not worth pouring points into Str and/or Dex just to get it. If you can't get 15 Dex for shield spec, you have probably spent points getting 15 Con for Plate spec. Maybe you miss out on +1 Reflex, but it's hardly a crippling disability.

First up we're talking about a str human Paladin, so the str is already good enough. Secondly we're talking about 'wanting' rather than 'needing' feats.

Either feat is on the path to the epic level heavy blade mastery feat which requires dex 17, and many of those epic feats feed off crits. HBO & shield spec. Use the same pre-reqs and they both bolster defender traits. You don't need 15 starting dex, 13/14 dex is enough. If you spend more then it will impact str/wis/cha, and if you spend too little you'll be using level bumps like crazy.

The key thing here is that the (human) paladin has to make more of a sacrifice to take these options.

 

[Iron Sky]

Our paladin didn't join the group until late heroic so don't know how they are in that tier, but I do know that when our level 12 divine champion paladin hits with his paragon encounter power, that solo is utterly nerfed. In group fights, he's overshadowed by the fighter, but when there's one big baddie, he locks it down hard.

 

[Beckett]

Our paladin didn't join the group until late heroic so don't know how they are in that tier, but I do know that when our level 12 divine champion paladin hits with his paragon encounter power, that solo is utterly nerfed. In group fights, he's overshadowed by the fighter, but when there's one big baddie, he locks it down hard.

We had a new player joined, and he brought in a 14th level paladin/champion of order. Certain Justice changed a tough fight against a solo into a considerably easier one until I was able to get the solo away long enough to break the paladin's mark. Subsequent fights against elite monsters were also considerably easier for the party, as a dazed and weakened elite is a lot less effective. I think the opinion of everyone present was that the paladin was a very welcome addition to the group. (besides Certain Justice, they were also pretty fond of Wrath of the Gods)

 

[ppaladin123]

Another problem with the paladin is that some of his attacks are implement-based and others are weapon-based. If you are a balanced paladin or a Cha-paladin you'll have to pump a great deal of money into a holy symbol AND a weapon (str-paladins have no implement-based attacks) until holy avengers appear in the epic tier. This means you'll either have much less money left over for magical items (feet slot, arms slot, head, etc.) than your teammates or you'll have to take a hit to your "to hit" with either your weapon or implement. In a game where ever +1 matters, that could be painful.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Needing 2 weapon/implements is not uncommon, and indeed is a limitation shared by all the divine classes, as well as anyone who does TWF.

So its certainly not something limited to Palladins.

 

[ppaladin123]

Needing 2 weapon/implements is not uncommon, and indeed is a limitation shared by all the divine classes, as well as anyone who does TWF.

So its certainly not something limited to Palladins.

You are correct regarding TWF (unless you use the cheesy double-sword from AV).

The other (released) divine class is a different story. Str-clerics have no implement-based powers and wis-clerics have no weapon-based powers. You only have to worry about having a weapon + implement if you try to build a "balanced cleric."

Cha-paladins have both implement and weapon-based powers. Str-paladins only have weapon-based powers (but are not given any options at a couple of levels).

 

[Kinneus]

Paladins are Defender with a minor in leader, just like Fighter are somewhat strikers and swordmage somewhat controllers.

This. I've seen Paladins that make better healers than Clerics, Fighters that outshined the party's striker, and Swordmages that dominate the battlefield.
True, this often because the Leaders/Strikers/Controllers in the group are woefully incompetent, but the point is that even though Fighters, Paladins and Swordmages all have the same role, they do not do the exact same thing.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Delayed double post for some reason

 

[Jack99]

This. I've seen Paladins that make better healers than Clerics, Fighters that outshined the party's striker, and Swordmages that dominate the battlefield.
True, this often because the Leaders/Strikers/Controllers in the group are woefully incompetent, but the point is that even though Fighters, Paladins and Swordmages all have the same role, they do not do the exact same thing.

How? Doesn't the cleric heal?