Buying Feats in 3.X

[Dannyalcatraz]

A thought just occurred to me: there are a few things in D&D you can "buy" with XP to improve your PC or gain a temporary advantage:

1) A new level. This is the primary function.

2) An unusually large gap (greater than 2 levels) between classes when multiclassing outside of favored classes. This is the secondary function.

3) A magic item you construct. This is the tertiary function.

4) The effect of a spell, power or other ability that has an XP cost. This is the quarternary function.

I was wondering if there would be any real problem with adding another item to that list- additional Feats- in the interest of promoting character design creativity. Yes- this does boost the power curve of the game a bit, but the more you spend on buying feats, the slower you progress...

I haven't done the math, but I can see a few ways of doing it. Note: all % listed below are chosen arbitrarily to make the math easy- I'm sure they're too low, and figuring out what the actual costs should be is open to discussion:

1) Give each feat an XP cost. This means that it will be hard to buy them at low levels, but easy to buy at high levels.

2) Assign each feat a cost of a % of the XP cost to gain the next level. You can only take up to 20% of your XP at any given level that way. All prereqs must be met.

Example: Feat X costs 5%, Feat Y costs 10%, and Feat Z costs 15% based on their power and utility. A PC who wants to take Feat Y before he makes 2nd level must pay 100 XP to take that feat (5% of 1000XP). He can spend no more than 200XP to buy feats this way.

PC #2 wants to take Feat X and Feat Z between 3rd and 4th level- he must pay 1200XP to do so.

3) Any PC can take any feat for which he meets the prereqs for 20%, +5% per additional feat.

4) Any PC can take any feat for which he meets the prereqs for 5%, an additonal one for 10%, the next for 20%, the next for 40%.

5) Any PC can buy an additional feat for which he meets the prereqs for 5%. At his next level, he can purchase an additional feat for 10%. At the next level, he can purchase an additional feat for 20%, etc., with no upper limit.

6) Give each feat an XP cost + 10%- it wlll be harder to buy feats early on, but easier at higher levels. However, the cost will scale up somewhat.

7...N) some other way.

Thoughts?

 

[Celebrim]

In the waning days of 1st edition, I was experimenting with a system for buying non-weapon proficiencies and other goodies with XP. I abandoned it as being utterly inelegant and complicated.

My general feeling is that if you've become so frustrated with 'perk' based character building that you are wanting to do something like this, you should probably abandon a class based system entirely and go to a skill based system.

Or, you could just redesign D&D's character advancement rules from the ground up. That would get you something like late 2nd editions rules for designing classes. The problem here is that you'll wind up importing all the frustrations of a skill based system (narrowly focused characters, lack of balance, etc.) into a system that probably won't fully lose the frustrations of a class based system.

 

[wolfpunk]

I think many people, myself included have looked at this before, and this is where it broke down for me.

What is the value of a feat in terms of XP cost, well, the answer is, it depends on what class the character that is taking it is.

For example, Toughness, a 3hp boost for a wizard is in essence a 75% increase in hp, but only a 25% increase for a barbarian. Should it cost the same for both of them?

Some feats are obviously geared more towards certain classes than others.

I just decided that if I want the characters to have more feats to just bump it to a feat every other level or every level accordingly.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I just decided that if I want the characters to have more feats to just bump it to a feat every other level or every level accordingly.

Ka-ching. Except there is no 'if', as far as I'm concerned. Characters (and other beings) get far too few feats in standard d20 games. Pathfinder (and likewise my previous house rules) goes some way toward fixing that, but I much prefer a feat per level, or a feat per level wherein you are not gaining an ability score increase. The difference in power is laughably minimal; doesn't even register, majority of the time. And yet, the capacity to customise in a simple, easy way is greatly improved.

But to directly address the OP, there is always something like Buy the Numbers or Complete Control, I guess. Or better, M&M (or GURPS, HERO, etc.) if you want that level of customisability. But I know, you know that. Just kiddin'. Kinda. . .

Actually, the Advanced Gamemaster's Guide has rules for this, more or less. Ars Vitae is a substance (a potion, basically) that grants a permanent bonus feat, that you must still qualify for, and so forth. Costs 10000 GP, and requires knowledge of limited wish. Yikes.

I'm struggling to think of other sources, though I strongly suspect that there are others. If I come across them somewhere, I'll let you know.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

What is the value of a feat in terms of XP cost, well, the answer is, it depends on what class the character that is taking it is.

Certainly! There wouldn't be a problem- conceptually or mathematically, at least- with differential pricing. The only question would be similar to the original post- how to do it:

1) Warrior types could get a discount on martial feats, spellcasters could get discounts on metamagic & item creation feats, etc.

2) The cost could be linked to your BAB- certain BABs would pay full price for certain feats or discounts on others.

3) Something else...

I just decided that if I want the characters to have more feats to just bump it to a feat every other level or every level accordingly.

My thought was that some people would like the flexibility to have a "talented" warrior who has full access to the Power Attack Feat tree at lower levels than his contemporaries, but someone else might just prefer to run a straight-up spellcaster and get those spell levels as fast as possible...

But to directly address the OP, there is always something like Buy the Numbers or Complete Control, I guess. Or better, M&M (or GURPS, HERO, etc.) if you want that level of customisability.

Well, what started me down this path was my preference for HERO and M&M. I was hoping to open the doorways of perception to some of my more conservative buddies who ONLY play D&D (meaning, in this case, 1st, 2nd and 3.XEd).

 

[genshou]

I looked at doing this once. Then I got a better idea and did this instead.

 

[Celebrim]

I looked at doing this once. Then I got a better idea and did this instead.

Some of that looks very very familiar.

I like your 'cascade skills' idea. It is a solution to a problem, but I'm going to have to think about it to decide whether the extra complexity means the cure is worse than the disease. Kudos though for creative thinking.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I designed a cascade system once- I like them, but my fellow gamers weren't right for it.

An XP purchase system, though, would be a bit more palateable...assuming I can get the cost structure right.

 

[genshou]

I was only referring to the feat-a-level thing, but you're welcome to cannibalize any other information on my wiki if you like it.

Off-topic tangent: Cascade skills aren't really all that complicated. I'm just terrible at explaining it.

 

[Celebrim]

I was only referring to the feat-a-level thing, but you're welcome to cannibalize any other information on my wiki if you like it.

I can see the argument for customization, but the problem I have with 'feat a level' is that I think if implemented, it would start to make one of the complaints by the 4e designers valid - that too much of your character's abilities were tied up in niggly piddly modifiers and details located opaquely in a feat list. I think for spell casting classes in particular, running your character is already complicated enough without adding a whole bunch of feats. On the other hand, many of my martial classes evolved toward 'feat a level', which I think was necessary to somewhat keep pace with spell-casters exponentially increasing power and had the nice side effect of being able to deeply customize without sacrificing basic 'duh' feats like 'improved initiative' or 'iron will' that pretty much everyone will want to take at some point.

So, in short, 'effectively a feat every level' for a class that doesn't gain spells, I'm happy with. A feat every level for a class already gaining spells seems excessive to me. A wizard can already gain feats at 1st (x2), 3rd, 5th, 6th, 9th, 10th, 12th, 15th (x2), 18th, and 20th. That's should be plenty to customize with assuming well designed feat trees.