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New Forgotten Realms designed by FR haters?

I hope historians don't start doing this! I mean, there's way too much backstory there! It's not their job when writing papers to keep up with all that. It's not feasible!

Oh no, historian is much too honorable a profession to revise subject matter. ;)

More seriously -- Star Trek, Star Wars, Transformers -- most any other decades-long property you could name; reboots or retcons are pretty commonplace , which is why it doesn't bother me much.
 

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Oh no, historian is much too honorable a profession to revise subject matter. ;)

More seriously -- Star Trek, Star Wars, Transformers -- most any other decades-long property you could name; reboots or retcons are pretty commonplace , which is why it doesn't bother me much.

Blasphemy!:eek:

Star Wars doesn't allow Retcons! (that is unless your last name is Lucas:blush:);):p
 

Oh no, historian is much too honorable a profession to revise subject matter. ;)

More seriously -- Star Trek, Star Wars, Transformers -- most any other decades-long property you could name; reboots or retcons are pretty commonplace , which is why it doesn't bother me much.

You know, this is just a game setting. I just can't muster the enthusiasm to get this worked up about it.
 

I found my old "grey box" FR books last weekend, and have been reading them again. It's remarkable how sparse the world they describe actually is, even though the books imply a lot of history and background. 4e FR seems to me like a step back towards this, and as much as I like the 3e FRCS, I think it's probably a wise decision overall.

I also don't quite get the complaints about FR lore being ditched: the new gamers coming to D&D and FR are frankly better off without having to digest all the information from the start, and the older ones already have all that. The past hasn't been significantly retconned (as far as I noticed), so if you're someone who loves the background stuff, you can use it all. In fact, if you hate the spellplague and the time jump, you can use the old fluff and new crunch without all that much effort.

As Imaro said, it's easier to ignore canon lore (I personally ignore all RSEs and major events in novels, unless I can somehow work them effortlessly into my campaigns) than recreate the same level of details; I suspect most new DMs do that anyway. Of course, if your players mostly care only about "getting the ball rollin'" and the way to the nearest dungeon, you don't need a lot of details. As a DM, I *need* to prepare at least 30-40 NPCs before each campaign starts (local rulers/nobles, high priests/clergy, guard commanders, innkeepers/shopkeepers and other movers-and-shakers) because my players like interacting with them and often want to know as much as possible about local affairs and personalities (not just the names of the shops, NPCs or what they look like -- history, landmarks, organizations etc. are important "fluff" for them, too). For example, when they're selling gear, they want to role-play it, and it's not as easy as saying "Alright, there's a dwarven merchant named Dougal McGruff who you could do business with" -- they want to know the name and location (on the village/town/city map) of *every* potential merchant they could sell their gear to ("He is rumored to a fence? Alright, we won't be selling to him... but what do we know about the 'Dragon's Den' and its proprietor?").

Now, if I were to run my games in 4E FR, that would be loads and loads of extra work; I wouldn't have the same details I now have (note: some of which I may ignore/rewrite as best fits the campaign). You see, even the Grey Boxed Set included villages and cities with keyed maps; it was a solid foundation to build on, to which every regional book and Volo's Guide added more names, locations and details. How much of that information is "viable" in 4E? All the NPCs are dead, and most of the businesses run by different people, many of the spells and magic items and monsters not converted to the 4E rules... yes, the history is there, to be recounted to PCs with relevant skills, or included in occasional hand-outs, but what other use would I have from all that material? Local customs and laws, trade and politics... all that have probably been affected by the Spellplague. A concrete example: how much lore given in Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast and FR Adventures still applies for Baldur's Gate, with its population of two million or so?

So, in my opinion it isn't exactly "back to the good ol' days of the Grey Boxed Set" type of situation, because that was, to me, a milestone in RPG setting design; lots of flavourful NPCs and their histories (i.e. "Here's how an armorer-turned-adventurer lived his life, and this is what an infamous wizard belonging to Cult of the Dragon does and thinks, and how about this Beholder serving the will of Bane? *This* is why he's allied with the Zhentarim", etc.), rumours, spellbooks, keyed settlement maps, organizations (including merchant companies), adventuring companies, poisons... breathtakingly well written glimpses into a hundred little things. And, back then, we knew there would be *more* of the stuff coming out, so even if we didn't know much about, say, Archenbridge, it would be detailed later on in an upcoming product. Even after all these years, I'm still using the Grey Boxed Set in my games, and also as a source of inspiration.

Where's that same quality or loving attention to detail in content and writing? Because I don't see it in FRCG anymore. Sure, holes ("mystery", if you define "blank" slate as that) and "freedom" and wonders aplenty everywhere (such as the motes); yet all of it seems to be written without any passion or emotional attachment. For me, at least, you can't compare the two; one is an outstanding and inspiring source, and the other is not. I'm not against change, but pray tell me: where's that same *spirit* and *feel* of the Realms I fell in love with? And why and how did it become the most popular D&D setting, if the "burden of lore" and depth of details in FR was indeed so horrifying as WoTC has claimed?
 

But who gets to decide which lore is quality? That's what I was talking about earlier when I mentioned valid research. The lore that you think is trash is another fan's treasure. No matter what you do, some longtime collector is going to be upset.

Well, the fans would, naturally. In literature, there are many, many canonical lists of important works (most of which are subjects of passionate debate, naturally), but "quality lore" could be determined by sales and/or public vote, i.e. by asking the fans which books they consider to be the "best" (and I'm fairly sure that the works of all the authors I mentioned would on the list). As for collectors... I can only speak for myself and the other collectors I know, but regardless of the fact that we may own them, I don't think people would mind if most of the lore in 'Jungles of Chult' or the 'Marco Volo'-series would not make it to the list.

I don't see why such a poll could not be conducted on the Internet; after all, it seemed to work just fine for WoTC as a source for marketing research on the 4E FR changes (i.e. the most vocal FR/Elminster/Mystra haters apparently "outvoted" everyone else, which resulted in the events of the Spellplague).
 

So, in my opinion it isn't exactly "back to the good ol' days of the Grey Boxed Set" type of situation, because that was, to me, a milestone in RPG setting design; lots of flavourful NPCs and their histories (i.e. "Here's how an armorer-turned-adventurer lived his life, and this is what an infamous wizard belonging to Cult of the Dragon does and thinks, and how about this Beholder serving the will of Bane? *This* is why he's allied with the Zhentarim", etc.), rumours, spellbooks, keyed settlement maps, organizations (including merchant companies), adventuring companies, poisons... breathtakingly well written glimpses into a hundred little things. And, back then, we knew there would be *more* of the stuff coming out, so even if we didn't know much about, say, Archenbridge, it would be detailed later on in an upcoming product. Even after all these years, I'm still using the Grey Boxed Set in my games, and also as a source of inspiration.

I love my Grey Box because it's a bare-bones kind of setting that only briefly touches on many aspects of the Realms and leaves the rest up to my own imagination. My Grey Box isn't the massive, encyclopedic, collection of NPCs and incredibly detailed information on every known aspect of life in the Realms that you describe it as. My Grey Box must be from an alternate Earth. :confused:
 

Very true what you say. Yet Eberron as a world has a paradigm that fits well within the 4e design philosophy. They need no excuses to drastically change anything. Eberron will not need to be shoehorned into 4e it will fit nice.

Isnt that slightly incorrect though? I recall WotC wanting to do a more massive change to eberron until a outcry went up and tehy changed their mind.

I dont think initially they cared much. They were planning on changing for changes sake.
 

Isnt that slightly incorrect though? I recall WotC wanting to do a more massive change to eberron until a outcry went up and tehy changed their mind.

I dont think initially they cared much. They were planning on changing for changes sake.

Prior to the release of D&D 4e, many vocal anti-4e opponents claimed that Eberron (as well as all other official D&D settings) were going to be re-written from the ground up for 4e but, so far as I know, there wasn't any truth to it.

WotC never (again, to my knowledge) announced that they were re-writing Eberron (or any other setting) from the ground up, nor did they ever announce that fan outrage caused them to scrap these plans that they never announced in the first place.

I think that changes have been discussed for several settings but the idea that they're all going to be setting-shattering changes was one that disgruntled fans, not WotC, put forth.
 
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Prior to the release of D&D 4e, many vocal anti-4e opponents claimed that Eberron (as well as all other official D&D settings) were going to be re-written from the ground up for 4e but, so far as I know, there wasn't any truth to it.

WotC never (again, to my knowledge) announced that they were re-writing Eberron (or any other setting) from the ground up, nor did they ever announce that fan outrage caused them to scrap these plans that they never announced in the first place.

I think that changes have been discussed for several settings but the idea that they're all going to be setting-shattering changes was one that disgruntled fans, not WotC, put forth.


You'd appear to be wrong.

I know I heard they did plan earth shattering changes or advance the timeline but changed their mind. And look what I came across:

From James Wyatt's blog:

"Hey Eberron fans,

I'm very pleased to be able to take a break from my work on the Player's Handbook to come on the boards today and tell you something I think you'll be happy to hear:

We hear you.

We've decided that the 4E Eberron Campaign Setting will not advance the timeline of the setting. The campaign starting year will still be 998YK, and we won't present major changes to the setting except as necessary to bring 4E elements into the world.

It's my hope that we'll be able to sketch out possible directions that events might take, but do that in the same way we do in our 3E sourcebooks—as options, possibilities, suggestions you might want to incorporate into your game. That's how we'll sneak in some of the ideas we've been kicking around.

Novels won't become canon. The world won't change according to the events of The Draconic Prophecies or any other novel. Your campaign will remain your campaign.

Let me thank you all again for your love for Eberron and the passion you put into your games. As exasperated as I get sometimes, you folks are the reason I do and love my job.

Keep playing!"

If I judge his blog right, they DID plan on advancing the timeline much akin to FR, but heard the fans and changed their mind.
 

As Imaro said, it's easier to ignore canon lore (I personally ignore all RSEs and major events in novels, unless I can somehow work them effortlessly into my campaigns) than recreate the same level of details; I suspect most new DMs do that anyway. Of course, if your players mostly care only about "getting the ball rollin'" and the way to the nearest dungeon, you don't need a lot of details. As a DM, I *need* to prepare at least 30-40 NPCs before each campaign starts (local rulers/nobles, high priests/clergy, guard commanders, innkeepers/shopkeepers and other movers-and-shakers) because my players like interacting with them and often want to know as much as possible about local affairs and personalities (not just the names of the shops, NPCs or what they look like -- history, landmarks, organizations etc. are important "fluff" for them, too). For example, when they're selling gear, they want to role-play it, and it's not as easy as saying "Alright, there's a dwarven merchant named Dougal McGruff who you could do business with" -- they want to know the name and location (on the village/town/city map) of *every* potential merchant they could sell their gear to ("He is rumored to a fence? Alright, we won't be selling to him... but what do we know about the 'Dragon's Den' and its proprietor?").

If sticking with canon is that important, and not having to make things up is also important, then you've got a serious problem running an FR game. Because most places just don't have enough detail for you. You HAVE to make up most of the information your players demand outside a tiny number of places. Also, even if you play in one of those and the players show no interest at all in going somewhere else you will run out of adventure hooks in that location at some point, after which you have to Make Stuff Up.

Where's that same quality or loving attention to detail in content and writing? Because I don't see it in FRCG anymore. Sure, holes ("mystery", if you define "blank" slate as that) and "freedom" and wonders aplenty everywhere (such as the motes); yet all of it seems to be written without any passion or emotional attachment. For me, at least, you can't compare the two; one is an outstanding and inspiring source, and the other is not. I'm not against change, but pray tell me: where's that same *spirit* and *feel* of the Realms I fell in love with? And why and how did it become the most popular D&D setting, if the "burden of lore" and depth of details in FR was indeed so horrifying as WoTC has claimed?

Why did the Realms become the most popular D&D setting? It didn't. That's Homebrew Game.

By a huge margin.

I
 

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