Fixed Level Gaming

[dm4hire]

Green Ronin released the PDF for Warriors & Warlocks this week. I'm waiting for the book as I own both editions of M&M, as well as the pocket edition, and this product is designed as an add-on to bring the comic book worlds of Sword & Sorcery to a table near you. Since M&M tends to focus more on fixed levels of play I'm wondering how appealing this genre of gaming will be to the average gamer. I mean do you think that level advancement is a requirement to enjoy the game? Would gaining treasure and magic items by themselves be enough for you to play a game where you're character never changes? Do you really need rewards to enjoy a fantasy game or any game for that matter?

If you were to create a game that was straight fixed level with no options like M&M or W&W. How many powers would you consider needed in order to have an enjoyable balance to the game?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Green Ronin released the PDF for Warriors & Warlocks this week. I'm waiting for the book as I own both editions of M&M, as well as the pocket edition, and this product is designed as an add-on to bring the comic book worlds of Sword & Sorcery to a table near you. Since M&M tends to focus more on fixed levels of play I'm wondering how appealing this genre of gaming will be to the average gamer. I mean do you think that level advancement is a requirement to enjoy the game? Would gaining treasure and magic items by themselves be enough for you to play a game where you're character never changes? Do you really need rewards to enjoy a fantasy game or any game for that matter?

If you were to create a game that was straight fixed level with no options like M&M or W&W. How many powers would you consider needed in order to have an enjoyable balance to the game?

I don't think levels are necessary, but advancements in some form are.

Items can satisfy this, but the goal is probably not just to get a higher plus - you will want new options that you can combine with older ones, or that improves what an older one did. A Boot of Speed turns into a Boot of Teleporation, a Flaming Longsword can also be used to shoot Fireballs, stuff like that. (A Longsword turning from +2 to +3 is also an improvement, but it doesn't add a new option. You just hit better.)

Levels (especially levels and classes) manage to achieve that. You don't just get a +1 to hit, you also learn a new trick that fits to the ones you already know, either in theme or in effect.
(Flaming Longsword: If it gets the ability to shoot fireballs at individual targets, it fits thematically - it is still all about fire. If you get the ability to make to blindingly fast attacks with it, there is no thematic link, but the effect is similar to the single attacks you already do.)

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I suppose (unique, character specific) powers should be around 4-8. Some people will still "need" more. But you might also want a few options that are available for everyone. (Stuff like Action Points, Rerolls, Grappe/Bullrush/Trip or what-you-have.)

 

[Aus_Snow]

Actually, in M&M (and therefore with W&W, of course) you do 'level up' by default. The GM awards each character Power Points at the end of an adventure. Also, once you've got enough power points to be (normally) assessed as belonging to a campaign of one Power Level higher, the GM (by default) will in fact raise the PL of the campaign accordingly.

Just thought I'd clear that one up.

 

[Rechan]

I agree with Ridcully.

For me, the increased numbers aren't what's fun. Your increased to-hit, your increased + from your magical item, all that does is compete with the rising number of enemy defenses.

At level 1, you hit on a 6. At level 10, you hit on a 6. Etc. Same with hit points - the increase in HP is relatively on par with the increase of damaging effects.

The fun of levels is that my character does new things. Usually does larger effects/to more targets. (Even a fighter may be still swinging his sword, but he's swinging it more times a round, etc).

If, for instance, from day 1, I only have 3 spells - and at the end of my adventuring career, I have those same spells that do the same thing? Hell No. Among other things, that means that your character is identical to the next guy, except by your gear.

In fact, I personally hate +x items, and the way D&D handles magical items in general. I'd much rather have 1-3 magical items, and each be a swiss-army knife of themagically appropriate affects (and very few purely numerical effects). Although that still puts too much of an emphasis on gear.

 

[Rechan]

More to the general thread asked by the OP:

Many, many games do not have Levels. In fact, I think D&D is one of the few games where you actually have Levels.

Most systems are based on a type of point-buy. You have X points to begin with, and you spend them. Then, XP translates into a new point, which you can now spend on things to advance. This advancement is a slow thing, and very focused - you could, for instance, put that point towards being better at one skill, or enhancing what you all ready can do, or gaining a new ability.

To break this into D&D terms, let's break a level down to what they provide. You have your non-class specific stuff: Attack bonus, Hit Points, Ability Score increases, and Feats. Then you have your class-specific benefits: Increased sneak attack damage, spells of either a higher level or more of a current level, etc. You would then assign each of these things a point value, and so advancement becoems 'I spend my point to get a new feat' 'I spend my point to increase my SA damage.' 'I want to learn a higher level spell, so I will spend my point.'

Because most systems are based on Point Buy (or a type of it), and those are very popular outside of D&D, I would say that 'Basically this level 1 D&D with just more magical items' is an awful, awful idea. But, to each their own.

Of course this all assumes that you're playing the game to increase/get better, and not, for instance, playing it to just play a character/tell a story/enjoy the experience. After all, some people can enjoy a game where no one ever picks up a die.

 

[TheWyrd]

If you were to create a game that was straight fixed level with no options like M&M or W&W. How many powers would you consider needed in order to have an enjoyable balance to the game?

I think there is a desire for some sort of advancement. At its heart, M&M tends to advance you at about the level of 1 pp per adventure. That's the equivalent of a feat. Most of the people I play with tend to stockpile them but they still exist.

 

[Kask]

I mean do you think that level advancement is a requirement to enjoy the game?

No, case in point. The original Traveller game.

 

[Umbran]

I mean do you think that level advancement is a requirement to enjoy the game?

First, as others have noted, do not confuse "no levels" with "no advancement".

Second, I don't think level advancement is required - I've played any number of point-buy games, that don't do "levels" per se. I think what it required is change and development.

If every game session is pretty much the same as the last, other than the particulars of the tactical situation, the game will lose its luster soon enough. Some combination of changes in power, tactics, plot, and character development (in the sense of the fiction, not of power) is generally called for to have folks come back to play the game over the long haul.

Having some form of advancement (by levels or otherwise) is useful for that. Not required, but darned useful. If the character power advances you can provide an ever changing spectrum of character abilities, and foes for the characters to face. And those will imply changes in available plots, and that invites character development. So, you get everything you need out of the one mechanic. You can do without it, but it is a bit more work.

 

[Bullgrit]

I'm currently playing and DMing a campaign where all PCs are topped out at 6th level (D&D3 E6 rules). Every 5,000 xp beyond 6th level earns the PC a bonus feat. After 6 adventures (gaining 6-8 feats), our characters are definitely advancing.

Not only do the bonus feats give the PCs slightly more power by way of more options, but gaining treasure is increasing power and options a bit, also.

Our PCs are demonstrably better -- more powerful, more capable -- after 6 completed adventures than they were in the first adventure, all without gaining a level.

Bullgrit

 

[Hereticus]

Advancement is of critical importance to every player I have ever met. In fact too many try to find ways to game the system and score more experience for themselves, and there are even some who try to outpace other players.

For those of you who have read some of my other posts, you've probably already come to the conclusion that I do things a bit differently. Than you may have thought can be a good or a bad thing.

I no longer award experience points... I jack the characters up a level when I believe it is appropriate for the game (or when they whine too loudly). I also raise all characters equally at and at the same time, for two reasons:

1) Better players may gain points more quickly. Since they are more skilled, they do not need the additional benefit of a higher level. This is a team game, and I keep it that way.

As a player my character had led the group in experience, and I had successfully did something that would place me another level above the second highest character. As the DM announced my good fortune to the group, I noted one other player grimace. I decided to fore go that advancement, and as a group we decided to keep everyone at the same level. None of the higher XP leader complained. It had helped our group with balance.

2) Some players miss a game or two for whatever reason. One player had to take an extended leave, and when he came back he was two levels behind the rest of us. He was hesitant to want to rejoin, but when we said that he had the level increases too, his excitement went from zero to ten in an instant.

It is a game... it is not reality. Treat all players equally.