Will WotC ever get it right?

Thats....thats absurd.
The ONLY way to even come close to having some form of balance in the game is to design in a vacuum. Powers are compared to powers. Feats are compared to feats. You cant compare power+feat to power because you looking at whole different scales of cost.

You are aware that this way the more broken 3E combos came into existing (Divine Metamagic + Nightsticks)?

The D&D group should get some advice from the M:TG people on how to make sure that their "cards" are balanced. After all 4E powers aren't that different from magic cards after all.
 

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Thats....thats absurd.
The ONLY way to even come close to having some form of balance in the game is to design in a vacuum. Powers are compared to powers. Feats are compared to feats. You cant compare power+feat to power because you looking at whole different scales of cost.

What you're saying designers can't do is exactly what players do every time they play the game. I a) disagree, and b) prefer games that are play tested so things that slip passed a designer get caught.

What is amusing is that had the two powers been switched this thread wouldn't have happened. Although the 29 wouldn't be all that much more powerful than the 25, it still would be a better power and progression would have been maintained. That may even have been what happened and a cut'n'paste error meant they got switched at birth. Oh well.
 

The D&D group should get some advice from the M:TG people on how to make sure that their "cards" are balanced. After all 4E powers aren't that different from magic cards after all.

Not that it was all that successful. Broken cards (and consequently degenerate combo decks) still got through, and a sneak peak by Zvi into the playtest procedure showed that the designers were not entirely sure what to look out for in cards themselves. One of them even suggested making the life loss (a drawback from some card) optional without realizing the implications (why would you ever voluntarily take damage if you could avoid it?) :blush:

This logic is even worse from a design perspective since it means that every power you design has to take into account all existing feats and limits your creativity in the future.

Which as 3e and M:TG showed, is vital to balance. But ultimately more of an ideal than a practical design goal. Which is why it rarely ever gets adhered to.

For 3e, you had the problem where every new splatbook released simply increased the number of options for spells such as polymorph or shapechange. Now, dnd designers had to keep track of one more variable - how well a monster interacts as a polymorph choice. But then they probably realized it was more trouble than it was worth, so they largely ignored the polymorph line of spells (probably resigning themselves to the fact that such a spell could never be balanced, and that the more they tried, the more they would neglect other more crucial aspects of dnd).

As for M:TG, to cite a famous example, it had this card called donate, which gave one of your permanents to your foe. Underpowered on its own (and intended more for fun than serious play). The designers then realized their folly a few expansions later. When they designed cards that confered strong benefits but with hefty drawbacks, they had to take into account the possibility of an enterprising player giving it to his foe using Donate, and winning the game when the opponent could no longer contend with the drawback. The issue here was that those drawbacks were meant to balance out the card, not be used as an offensive tactic. In fact, the card became the cornerstone of one of the most degenerate decks in M:TG history - the infamous necro-donate. But was otherwise useless outside of it.

Thats....thats absurd.
The ONLY way to even come close to having some form of balance in the game is to design in a vacuum. Powers are compared to powers. Feats are compared to feats. You cant compare power+feat to power because you looking at whole different scales of cost.

But the latter is the way people are going to play the game. They are not going to select feats and powers in a vacuum. They are going to want to optimize their choices (how much is irrelevant here), and select feats and powers that synergize particularly well together. Those they don't need, will just stay unused.

If fire spells get more support than any other element, common sense dictates that people are going to want to opt for fire-oriented powers over the rest, simply because they are getting more return on their investment. DnD optimization isn't about abusing the heck out of a single overpowered ability. It is more about the stacking of multiple smaller effects, each fairly minor on its own, to achieve a much greater result overall.

For example, many minor pluses to skills seem fairly harmless on its own. But together, they allow an elf cleric to get up to +15 on his perception check at 1st lv (+5 trained, +4wis, +3focus, +2racial, +1background). :confused:
 

If fire spells get more support than any other element, common sense dictates that people are going to want to opt for fire-oriented powers over the rest, simply because they are getting more return on their investment. DnD optimization isn't about abusing the heck out of a single overpowered ability. It is more about the stacking of multiple smaller effects, each fairly minor on its own, to achieve a much greater result overall.

They may currently have more support than any other element, however if you balance powers according to only the current existing support you will overpower the other elemental powers once they are expanded upon. Or even worse, you will be forced to cut off developing support for them.

This of course is ignoring opportunity costs, if fire powers require support to be on par with thunder spells, then a character who picked thunder spells with feats for other things (like say defenses and versatility) would naturally make a superior character than one who picked fire and was forced to pay a feat tax.
 

Yet.

This logic is even worse from a design perspective since it means that every power you design has to take into account all existing feats and limits your creativity in the future.
I am not saying that this is what happened, but you could have design guidelines that accounted for this from the start. For example: "We will introduce feats that negate fire resistance. That's a unique stick of fire, differentiating it from the other energy forms."

I think that would be possible. Similar guidelines apply to power sources.

Thats....thats absurd.
The ONLY way to even come close to having some form of balance in the game is to design in a vacuum. Powers are compared to powers. Feats are compared to feats. You cant compare power+feat to power because you looking at whole different scales of cost.
I don't think a "design in vacuum" would be sufficient. You would still have general guidelines on what feats can do with a power. That might not be sufficient either.

In an ideal situation, you would be able to account for "power + feat" cost. But that would basically require you to have your entire game system described as a coherent mathematical model, with a way to count everything together and say "With this new feat, the Deva Wizard Power Index increases by 4 points, bringing it on par with the Human Figher Power Index".
Of course, if anyone managed to do this, he'd be a genius. ;)
 

I am not saying that this is what happened, but you could have design guidelines that accounted for this from the start. For example: "We will introduce feats that negate fire resistance. That's a unique stick of fire, differentiating it from the other energy forms."

I think that would be possible. Similar guidelines apply to power sources.

Which should be irrelevant to the design process of the powers. If you're designing powers on the premise that some day you'll publish a feat, all you are doing is undermining those powers until that day. On top of that, you are making that feat necessary to the use of those powers.

You need to design all powers so that they begin at a relatively equal power level, then you design the feats so they add a relatively equal amount to the various powers. Its tough, but if all powers are balanced with each other and all feats are balanced with each other then all feat+power combinations should be balanced with each other.

Corner cases and hyperspecializations not withstanding.

I don't think a "design in vacuum" would be sufficient. You would still have general guidelines on what feats can do with a power. That might not be sufficient either.

True, but at some point you cant foresee all the power A + feat A + feat B + class ability Y + other classes power A = pwnage. You just have to make sure you've got balanced, linear progression in powers/feats/abilities and trust the DMs to lay the smackdown on munchkins.

I guess the problem is that saying a fire spell is 29th level means it has the power of a 29th level power. Not that it has 29th level power if and only if you take these two feats along side it.
 

In an ideal situation, you would be able to account for "power + feat" cost. But that would basically require you to have your entire game system described as a coherent mathematical model, with a way to count everything together and say "With this new feat, the Deva Wizard Power Index increases by 4 points, bringing it on par with the Human Figher Power Index".
Of course, if anyone managed to do this, he'd be a genius. ;)
I thought WotC had made a big deal about how they modeled the whole 4e system -- that they'd modeled how many rounds you were expected to last, rather than just how many rounds the average playtest Fighter lasted, against foes of a given level.

Am I making things up here, or did they actually work out the statistical effects of various stuff?

Cheers, -- N
 

At first, I found it odd that some of the higher-level powers seemed to be only slightly stronger than their lower-level abilities (or, as pointed out in this thread, actually less powerful). However, the more I play 4e, the more I'm thinking the reasoning for this is because, unlike 3e spells, 4e powers aren't meant to replace each other, but rather to replace your at-wills.

At level 1, you've got a couple encounter/daily powers, and once those are gone you're left with your at-wills. Each additional encounter/daily replaces another use of your at-will.

As you get into the higher levels, the ability to re-train means you can keep adjusting your power suite, swapping in an AoE while swapping out an extra immobilization power, or vice-versa, as additional options become available.

There may still be the odd power that doesn't make sense even so, but I'm thinking this is the way the system is set up, and why there's less of an obvious power climb between power tiers.
 

At first, I found it odd that some of the higher-level powers seemed to be only slightly stronger than their lower-level abilities (or, as pointed out in this thread, actually less powerful). However, the more I play 4e, the more I'm thinking the reasoning for this is because, unlike 3e spells, 4e powers aren't meant to replace each other, but rather to replace your at-wills.
That could be true up to 13th level, but after that, you do replace Encounter and Daily powers with higher-level versions.

Cheers, -- N
 

Which should be irrelevant to the design process of the powers. If you're designing powers on the premise that some day you'll publish a feat, all you are doing is undermining those powers until that day. On top of that, you are making that feat necessary to the use of those powers.
Yes, that would be the result. And it might very well be fully intended. After all, we didn't get Metallic Dragons and Frost Giants in MM 1 either. ;)

But aren't we already talking about spells/powers that came after the first PHB?

True, but at some point you cant foresee all the power A + feat A + feat B + class ability Y + other classes power A = pwnage. You just have to make sure you've got balanced, linear progression in powers/feats/abilities and trust the DMs to lay the smackdown on munchkins.
Maybe. But in the ideal case, they DM wouldn't have to worry about that and can focus on the interesting stuff.


I thought WotC had made a big deal about how they modeled the whole 4e system -- that they'd modeled how many rounds you were expected to last, rather than just how many rounds the average playtest Fighter lasted, against foes of a given level.

Am I making things up here, or did they actually work out the statistical effects of various stuff?

Cheers, -- N
Yes, I remember that they said something along those lines - even their own mathematician or something like that. But I don't think the end result was some single formula you could inderst all powers and feats and get the necessary results.
I might be off, though. ;)
 

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