Expertise justification?

[KarinsDad]

so the game completly failed for 8+ months where no one could hit at epic levels, and we had post after post that didn't know why there characters where epic fail, then this feat came and ...well it went the other way, 90% of posters where fine, the only ones that thought anything was worng was in theory in the math, not in the game...so yea excuse me well I don't belive the problem exsits, becuse the 'fix' is what made people think there was a problem...

Sources?

It's easy to write anything. Do you have anything to back up your claim?

I know of one epic level player poster who claimed that it was grindy and harder to hit, but that eventually they won their encounters. And I also experienced this in my playtest (where some PCs had to roll 17s to hit a BBEG).

And other people have had similar experiences:

D&D 4th Edition: PHB 2 - Quarter To Three Forums

I think I'm already starting to see this in our level 10-11 character campaign. We're fighting stuff all the time where we routinely need over 30 to hit. Even with +14 bonuses, that's not easy.

My experience with some Paragon and Epic level play is that, pre-Weapon/Implement Exerptise, characters had to start looking for external bonuses or Aid Another actions to reliably hit enemies with big attacks at high levels.

If you're in a party with a ranged leader who can grant bonuses to any attack you like, it works pretty well; if you were without a leader who granted to-hit bonuses, or one who only granted them to melee attacks (like many warlords) you could run into the situation where you had to work really hard to get a 50% or better hit chance (often through aid another.)

While Leader synergy was intended, screwing casters and making people rely on Aid Another actions was not.

 

[DrSpunj]

I'd also say that you DM is being a true butt-head if he is trying to ban it.

Well, Mr. Goodfellow, in case you haven't actually read the entire nine pages in this thread you've just insulted me directly since I'm his DM.

Since I've made several posts in the thread, constructive ones I hope, I'd ask you to please read them and rebut anything in particular you disagree with.

But I'd very much appreciate you not being insulting to me or anyone else with generalizations and unhelpful characterizations while we try to continue the discussion.

By your post count it's possible you're a newcomer here. If so, welcome! And to avoid any future misunderstandings please read the forum FAQs or touch base with a Moderator if you have any questions for them.

Thank you, and have a nice day!

 

[Nail]

...To summarize, 4e in the Heroic Tier doesn't appear to be very deadly.

That's a good analysis. Thanks!

FWIW: I think if you took a poll of all of the players (me included!), you'd find we think your campaign is deadly enough, thank-you-very-much. (I'm thinking of several conversations after the night's gaming is over.) So although your analysis of the numbers is spot-on, I think the problem you perceive just isn't there...for the players, anyway.

 

[Nail]

But I'd very much appreciate you not being insulting to me or anyone else with generalizations and unhelpful characterizations while we try to continue the discussion.

Agreed.

 

[blargney the second]

The dice really weren't going your way and you still managed to pull out a victory with absolutely no one in any real danger of actually dying. By that I mean: having failed 2 death saves or within 1 reasonable round of dying by reaching minus bloodied hp.

Personally, I'd call any PC in single digit hps or less to be in danger of dying. Every round of unconsciousness is a round where one of your players is sitting around inactive at the table. They'll still feel the same anxiousness about their character's life when they're in single digit hps, but at least they get to do something.

If you look at the fight from that perspective, how many PCs were in single digit hps or less over the course of the fight?
-blarg

 

[Bayuer]

@GMforPowergamers
I admire you ignorance. Did you even made some steps to look how the game is on higher levels? Do you know how basic math looks at epic? Gap is huge.

I noticed it first, when my party reached paragon tier. There was something wrong with NADs. Monster hitted us on very low dice rolls. The PHB2 comes out and Experitse and NADs feats makes me think. I made math crunch. And here we are. The problem existed, but we all were newbies in 4E so we didn't exacly know if there something wrong in system, or everything is just fine and as it should be.

To be honest. Yes you can play withou Expertise and NAD feats, but it's completly boring for all the players. Even worst it give a DM a powerfull weapon to ruin the session. The only person who will enjoy such a session is powergaming DM, who thinks this game is about destroying PCs or "make them suffer".

Maybe everything will be ok, if some DMs will not make huge mistakes when they design fights. I can be pretty sure many DMs use monster of higher level than party all the time. If this is in n+1 to n+3 (wher n is party level) things should be quite ok, but when DM will use some low level monsters too. In practice I think most DM use very high level monsters. If this is soldier then grind can kick your ass to the bottom of abbys. Anyway such a fights should be playable. So we need better NADs and to hit chances.

*Bing
PHB2 comes out.

Many may argue that +1 to hit will not change DPR, will be not good etc. There were non such a feats before PHB2 and there are plenty of the same feats with feat tag, making you character able to gain +6 to hit on epic tier. We have revolution here. Anyone who claims thats nonse can't look wide at changes that were made, or just don't know the system well.

 

[DrSpunj]

Personally, I'd call any PC in single digit hps or less to be in danger of dying. Every round of unconsciousness is a round where one of your players is sitting around inactive at the table. They'll still feel the same anxiousness about their character's life when they're in single digit hps, but at least they get to do something.

Good points, and I'm really not trying to equate death with fun for me as the DM or any of my players. There are plenty of threads describing how unfun it is to be nearly perpetually stunned and the dying condition is certainly along those same lines. However in this battle the two PCs that were dying at the same time had (foolishly ) separated themselves a bit from the rest of the party and roughly a third of the kobolds ganged up on them and took them down. They were making other saves at the same time and participating in other ways so I don't really consider them "inactive".

The Swordmage was making death saves and saving against the Defenders None Shall Pass recharging ability which made him immobilized and gave him a -2 penalty to all defenses (save ends both). He shook it off before being healed so he was able to rejoin the battle quickly after a few rounds of death saves (again, only missed 1 of those).

The downed Warlock was affected by that ability as well as the Sentries' Mighty Strike ability causing 5 ongoing damage. She made her death saves for the couple rounds she was down but failed against the ongoing damage so she really was getting nervous each round as her hp kept dropping. She never did shake off the immobilizing condition and failed that save for about 6 rounds straight though after being healed she was able to participate further in the battle with her Eldritch Blast to take out nearly dead mobs that were beating on the other PCs about 9 or 10 squares away from her.

So while they were dying they were making multiple saves and were able to participate during other players' turns with battle strategy and advice. Happily not "inactive".

If you look at the fight from that perspective, how many PCs were in single digit hps or less over the course of the fight?

Those two who each only dropped once but stayed within a surge's worth of 0 after they got up until the battle's end. I think the only other person that dropped was the TacLord who only had 2 healing surges going into the battle and used them both. He was standing at the end because of the Cleric's Cure Light Wounds power.

Nail is a battleraging fighter and I'm pretty sure I never got him into the bottom quarter of his HP. The Wizard I managed to bloody once but he and the Ranger & Cleric all did a very good job of largely staying out of range of most attacks and enemies. The only artillery I had in the fight were the 6 javelin throwing minions all of which were the first to appear scattered around the cave/party and were all dead by the 2nd round. I think I landed 2 or 3 javelin attacks each doing 5 dmg. First blood to the kobolds.

The kobolds were purposefully using their Shifty abilities and greater numbers to tag-team, flank & gang up on a single PC as much as possible so those I attacked I usually hit pretty hard over the course of a couple rounds. The others really didn't get focused on that much.

With my complaints about how hard it is to actually kill a PC I'm partially here thinking of a battle from 2 session ago where the party was split up across a river against 3 Dire Wolves, 2 Hobgoblin Soldiers & 2 Hobgoblin Archers. In that battle I literally dropped the Swordmage 6 times before I got the chance to CDG him (and of course that occurred right after the player left to go home early and since those were the first enemies the party was fighting against in the campaign that would CDG I didn't want to do it without him being present! I guess I'm a big softy. )

 

[blargney the second]

So if I understand correctly, an offense boosting is banned because you're having a hard time getting through their defenses?
-blarg

 

[GMforPowergamers]

@GMforPowergamers
I admire you ignorance.

wow I admire your ability to run away and hide behind personal attacks instead of responding to what I said...it makes it much easier to ignore your selfserving numbers when you do the same with everything I say...

Did you even made some steps to look how the game is on higher levels? Do you know how basic math looks at epic? Gap is huge.

first I know the numbers...second I played 2nd-27th level pre PHBII, and you know what I found...it got harder as we fought more and more powerful monsters, but we could compansatge and still win the day at every point...without the feats...I also saw and spoke to many people with simalar experiances, I also have an entire char op board that made A habit of makeing powerhouse character even so far as to make characters that could solo orcus...without these feats...So that gap may be there, but there are ways to deal with it. It is not crippling. HOWEVER there were some people who had some problems, and this feat is perfect for them, but not everyone...

I noticed it first, when my party reached paragon tier. There was something wrong with NADs. Monster hitted us on very low dice rolls.

oh noes PCs got hit...how horrable that isn't suppose to happen...

The PHB2 comes out and Experitse and NADs feats makes me think. I made math crunch. And here we are. The problem existed, but we all were newbies in 4E so we didn't exacly know if there something wrong in system, or everything is just fine and as it should be.

and we here with +2 months expeariance can now say we grew enough to say without a doubt...oh wait we are still less then a year into the system and we are still learneing, and guess what...no one is an expert yet....

To be honest. Yes you can play withou Expertise and NAD feats, but it's completly boring for all the players.

Prove that... I can prove that there are groups not completly boared without it...heck I don't even know the players or DM of the group, but they posted here...

Even worst it give a DM a powerfull weapon to ruin the session. The only person who will enjoy such a session is powergaming DM, who thinks this game is about destroying PCs or "make them suffer".

yea just look at how it destoryies nail fun...oh wait nail is still enjoying the game he plays...correct me if I am wrong

Maybe everything will be ok, if some DMs will not make huge mistakes when they design fights. I can be pretty sure many DMs use monster of higher level than party all the time. If this is in n+1 to n+3 (wher n is party level) things should be quite ok, but when DM will use some low level monsters too. In practice I think most DM use very high level monsters. If this is soldier then grind can kick your ass to the bottom of abbys. Anyway such a fights should be playable. So we need better NADs and to hit chances.

so what fight is unplayable again??? Adult red dragon lv 15 solo Vs 11th level PC...it seamed like a fun fight when I ran it...before PHBII was leaked at all, back when I was hopeing it would have psionics in it...

Many may argue that +1 to hit will not change DPR,

maybe you need to pay closer attention to what we argue...I see no one saying that. I said DPR is BS and i no way refelct the reality of the game...but not that this doesn't change it...

There were non such a feats before PHB2

so should we use the metric that there are nothing like X yet, so X must not work???? That seams very limiting, like new things can't be made that are not reskined old things...

and there are plenty of the same feats with feat tag, making you character able to gain +6 to hit on epic tier. We have revolution here.

Yes we have a revolution in that the Devs realized the game was NOT so weak that it couldn't support att increasin feats. They learned this WONT break the system, and can enhance the fun for players...wow something we agree on, that this changes the way the game works...Of cource I see it for change that is ok/good, you see it as bad/end of the world...but it is astart...

Anyone who claims thats nonse can't look wide at changes that were made, or just don't know the system well.

Anyone who claims people who disagree with them 'don't know the system' is guilty of attacking instead of listening. If you assume you are right, and all arguments against you are dumb...then it is real easy to say "Everyone who matters agrees"
I on the other side say "There is still alot of fleshing out this needs, and we should take a wait and see attitude"...

 

[DrSpunj]

So if I understand correctly, an offense boosting is banned because you're having a hard time getting through their defenses?

Nope. It's banned for now, at Heroic Tier, because:

• It seems unnecessary at the current time: with good teamwork the party is having very little problem hitting even Soldiers of Level+2 with average die rolls With the new Solo guidelines discussed in the latest Podcast and what I've seen in MM2 so far (not really through much of it yet) I don't expect problems going forward with Solos and newer monsters either
• Overpowered compared to other feats: I don't like how these feats trump most other attack boosting feats at Paragon & Epic tiers of play; this is not a big consideration at Heroic but there are still some feats that are clearly overshadowed by it
• Poor implementation: I don't like how this feat affects all or most attacks for some PCs and by its nature is not as helpful to some classes or attacks (like a Dragonborn's breath weapon) if it is in fact a "math fix" necessary for all PC attacks
• I haven't yet found an easy way to tweak it or house rule it that makes me comfortable: I've considered making it a power bonus to reign in its power but I think that makes some teamwork actually less likely & helpful. I've also thought of making it a Paragon level feat that adds a flat +1 bonus or maybe scales to +2 at Epic.
• I'm not a fan of granting a boon and then asking for it back down the road as I expect it will lead to some bad feelings if players still don't agree there's a problem. This gaming group is only about 6 months old, while a few of us have known each other for years we're not all old friends. I'm more likely to just try and compensate by increasing the mobs and I don't want to even start down that road if I don't have to.
• I always have the option of "unbanning" it later if I'm convinced otherwise and letting my players retrain if they want to take down the road

I am still waiting for the WotC article Mearls apparently spoke about for DDI that explains some of what WotC was thinking with the Expertise feats. I'm hoping that will make me feel more comfortable with this line of feats.