amysrevenge
First Post
I haven't gotten to Paragon yet, so I hope to hear how it goes...
Thoughts on my 4E anniversary, E1 and Paragon levels
- Thread starter MerricB
- Start date
the Jester
Legend
Here's hoping the paragon levels treat you right. We're almost halfway into them- the top level in the party just hit 14th- and there is a definite change in the cool monsters that I can throw at my group. They've met both a lich and a death knight, even if they didn't fight both of them...
Agamon
Adventurer
So far, my group played the first three levels of Heroic and the the first three levels of Paragon. This is what I've found (though take it with a grain of salt; the Heroic levels were an adventure I created myself, Paragon was a conversion of Exp. to Castle Ravenloft):
The H levels, the PCs were in more danger. Minions were meaningful, elites were tough, solos were hard. In the P levels, the party was only in danger the one time they overexerted themselves by doing 7(!) encounters without an extended rest. Other than that, they pretty much cakewalked everything. Minions lasted a whole round if lucky, nothing special about elites and Strahd, a L20 solo, didn't even knock out one of the L13 PCs in that very long fight (they even had 3 encounters before the solo fight without an ext. rest).
So we're now starting back at L1 with the Scales of War AP. I'm doing the 3/4 hp/+1/2 lvl dmg mod (something I started at the end of EtCR), so we'll see how that goes. The first session, the players were overwhelmed by their PCs' fragility. A kuthrik fight nearly TPKed them. They weren't used to having even one of them falling unconcious, let alone 3 of them.
Overall, though, it's a fun game, and I personally love DMing it. Prep is phenominal (easy, quick and enjoyable), especially with DDI. That's probably the single best RPG purchase I think I've ever made (and I'm a grognard from way back).
The H levels, the PCs were in more danger. Minions were meaningful, elites were tough, solos were hard. In the P levels, the party was only in danger the one time they overexerted themselves by doing 7(!) encounters without an extended rest. Other than that, they pretty much cakewalked everything. Minions lasted a whole round if lucky, nothing special about elites and Strahd, a L20 solo, didn't even knock out one of the L13 PCs in that very long fight (they even had 3 encounters before the solo fight without an ext. rest).
So we're now starting back at L1 with the Scales of War AP. I'm doing the 3/4 hp/+1/2 lvl dmg mod (something I started at the end of EtCR), so we'll see how that goes. The first session, the players were overwhelmed by their PCs' fragility. A kuthrik fight nearly TPKed them. They weren't used to having even one of them falling unconcious, let alone 3 of them.
Overall, though, it's a fun game, and I personally love DMing it. Prep is phenominal (easy, quick and enjoyable), especially with DDI. That's probably the single best RPG purchase I think I've ever made (and I'm a grognard from way back).
FriarRosing
First Post
I was really on the fence about going back to 4th edition after discovering the older versions of the game, but I think this thread is really making me want to try it again. I think I'll like the game more once I get the Monster Manual II. I was let down with the number of monsters, and I think that contributed a lot to my group's not playing a lot. Also, I only have two friends who are into the game, leading to a two person party, which 4th edition doesn't really work as well for.
FunkBGR
Explorer
Thanks MerricB - I actually read a couple of your posts on why it sucked. I've run Age of Worms previously in 3.5, and was already working on those exact problems you had. Then 4e came out, and I haven't really looked back.MerricB said:
Yeah, it ended up that way.
Re: Magic Items:
Honestly, I got this feeling in 3e too - magic items were a dime a dozen, and you were selling all the +1 swords you came across. At least, this happened all three times I ran Shackled City from start to finish.
By the book, they are pretty bland. But so were +1 swords in 3e. If you want magical items to be, well, magical - mix it up. Give them Properties and have them do different things. I've usually taken the liberty of adding stuff to weapons, although minor. +1 to this skill, glows like a torch, or unerringly points north when commanded. Stuff like that.
My 4e campaign died a slow death. None of my players were very happy with it. Running an online game of KotS helped a lot more, as the players were far more enthusiastic about the system.
Looking back at my own DMing, I am only now starting to get over the eagerness for simple combat. I still want to run the system through its paces, to get to play with all these cool monsters, but that's cooling.
I also see the places where lovers of older editions hit a wall, and in the future I will try to pre-emptively try to shift the focus of players, especially before the game begins.
At this stage, I'm still very leery of skill challenges. I'm not sure how to run them in a smooth fashion, especially with players. How to present it in a manner that does not feel wooden and mini-game like.
Looking back at my own DMing, I am only now starting to get over the eagerness for simple combat. I still want to run the system through its paces, to get to play with all these cool monsters, but that's cooling.
I also see the places where lovers of older editions hit a wall, and in the future I will try to pre-emptively try to shift the focus of players, especially before the game begins.
At this stage, I'm still very leery of skill challenges. I'm not sure how to run them in a smooth fashion, especially with players. How to present it in a manner that does not feel wooden and mini-game like.
I wonder how many others are working up to their one year anniversary? We'll hit a year on July 22 and can't wait.
My group was a bunch of old school players who hadn't played pen and paper in years(decades). It's been a great run and keeps getting better.
We're fast approaching paragon(this seems pretty standard, one year/tier) and while the world is my own design, I've really enjoyed the Open Grave source book as well. Hands down, the DMG was still the best source book I've ever read.
The character builder has been a boon for the players, making it very easy for them to precompute everything and generally makes the game run faster.
The addition of a tactical map has also been a great way to mix up combat and keep things interesting.
Looking forward to another year with my group.
My group was a bunch of old school players who hadn't played pen and paper in years(decades). It's been a great run and keeps getting better.
We're fast approaching paragon(this seems pretty standard, one year/tier) and while the world is my own design, I've really enjoyed the Open Grave source book as well. Hands down, the DMG was still the best source book I've ever read.
The character builder has been a boon for the players, making it very easy for them to precompute everything and generally makes the game run faster.
The addition of a tactical map has also been a great way to mix up combat and keep things interesting.
Looking forward to another year with my group.
re: Magic Items
Artifacts, artifacts, artifacts...The best ever implementation of artifacts and I think many DMs need to let go of the idea of artifacts only appearing once a tier....
My 5-6 party usually has at least two artifacts at any one time...These are the cool magic items IMO.
As well, I don't have the PCs using a wishlist...Using the DMG, I incorporated the expected bonuses into the character and I got rid of the magical shoppe as mentioned there.
Now, with only magic items being found, my pcs tend to love what they actually find...This of course only works since my players like the random nature of magic items (and I still have the transfer magic item ritual so even if they find a magic battleaxe, it's no problem to transfer it to another type of item)
Asmor's random generator is another good tool.
Artifacts, artifacts, artifacts...The best ever implementation of artifacts and I think many DMs need to let go of the idea of artifacts only appearing once a tier....
My 5-6 party usually has at least two artifacts at any one time...These are the cool magic items IMO.
As well, I don't have the PCs using a wishlist...Using the DMG, I incorporated the expected bonuses into the character and I got rid of the magical shoppe as mentioned there.
Now, with only magic items being found, my pcs tend to love what they actually find...This of course only works since my players like the random nature of magic items (and I still have the transfer magic item ritual so even if they find a magic battleaxe, it's no problem to transfer it to another type of item)
Asmor's random generator is another good tool.
I don't want to derail the thread, but on the topic of magical items...
[sblock]I've found magical items were a real stumbling block for one of my players too.
I've been contemplating how to change magical items, because I don't like how the system treats them. I don't like how many you're expected to have, and I strongly dislike +X items.
My general feeling about magical items is that you get 1-3 that have a suite of linked abilities, and those stay with you for quite some time of your career. One thing I liked from a story perspective was 3e's Weapons of Legacy, that weapons gained powers and had mechanical representations of their history.
So here is something I had in mind. Bare in mind it's rather quick and dirty:
Sword of the Icy Field (Level 6)
Property: Gain resist 5 cold.
Proeprty: Gain Ice Walk.
Power (At-Will): As a move action, freeze all non-magical, non-animated liquid in a close burst 2. Anyone in the liquid are pushed back 2 squares. The frozen liquid can be walked on, but is treated as challenging terrain (wielder of Sword is immune).
Power (Encounter): Attack: Level+2 vs. Reflex; Anyone in the liquid when the At-Will power is used are immobilized (save ends) instead.
Power (Daily): Standard action. Create an ice wall 5 with 8 until end of your next turn. Wall has 40 HP, vulnerability fire 5. Wielder is treated as having Phasing with regards to the created wall. Sustain minor: wall persists.
Shield of the Abating Flame (Level 11)
Property: Resist fire 10.
Property: All enemies that use the Fire keyword are treated as marked by the Shield's wielder.
Power (At-Will): Minor action. The wielder of the shield may transfer any benefit of this shield's abilities to any non-combatant ally he is carrying/holding hands with.
Power (Encounter): Immediate reaction, when missed by a melee attack. Target takes 1d8+con fire damage.
Power (Daily): Immediate reaction, when hit by an attack that deals fire damage. Gain hit points equal to half the damage dealt by the attack, before applying the shield's fire resistance.
Items now become mini-artifacts. The idea is to take an item and give it some serious thematic powers/properties. Although the powers are fairly situational (the shield vs. fire, the sword freezing liquids), it fits the theme.
One thought I had towards this is that you have a limited number of items, but you also have a list of thematic powers. The list would be used to:
1) Upgrade them, by doing things story related that would awaken those powers (ala Weapons of Legacy), or the DM chooses from the list and adds it on there as a reward for level up.
2) Assemble your own items. This might even let you have a linked set, like the Sword of the Icy Plain, the Armor of the Glacial Shell, and the Frozen Heart Amulet.
The real trick is balancing this, not only in terms of what the items do, but also balancing how to make it not an uber broken thing in and of itself, especially as they grow in power or PCs get more than 1.[/sblock]
[sblock]I've found magical items were a real stumbling block for one of my players too.
I've been contemplating how to change magical items, because I don't like how the system treats them. I don't like how many you're expected to have, and I strongly dislike +X items.
My general feeling about magical items is that you get 1-3 that have a suite of linked abilities, and those stay with you for quite some time of your career. One thing I liked from a story perspective was 3e's Weapons of Legacy, that weapons gained powers and had mechanical representations of their history.
So here is something I had in mind. Bare in mind it's rather quick and dirty:
Sword of the Icy Field (Level 6)
Property: Gain resist 5 cold.
Proeprty: Gain Ice Walk.
Power (At-Will): As a move action, freeze all non-magical, non-animated liquid in a close burst 2. Anyone in the liquid are pushed back 2 squares. The frozen liquid can be walked on, but is treated as challenging terrain (wielder of Sword is immune).
Power (Encounter): Attack: Level+2 vs. Reflex; Anyone in the liquid when the At-Will power is used are immobilized (save ends) instead.
Power (Daily): Standard action. Create an ice wall 5 with 8 until end of your next turn. Wall has 40 HP, vulnerability fire 5. Wielder is treated as having Phasing with regards to the created wall. Sustain minor: wall persists.
Shield of the Abating Flame (Level 11)
Property: Resist fire 10.
Property: All enemies that use the Fire keyword are treated as marked by the Shield's wielder.
Power (At-Will): Minor action. The wielder of the shield may transfer any benefit of this shield's abilities to any non-combatant ally he is carrying/holding hands with.
Power (Encounter): Immediate reaction, when missed by a melee attack. Target takes 1d8+con fire damage.
Power (Daily): Immediate reaction, when hit by an attack that deals fire damage. Gain hit points equal to half the damage dealt by the attack, before applying the shield's fire resistance.
Items now become mini-artifacts. The idea is to take an item and give it some serious thematic powers/properties. Although the powers are fairly situational (the shield vs. fire, the sword freezing liquids), it fits the theme.
One thought I had towards this is that you have a limited number of items, but you also have a list of thematic powers. The list would be used to:
1) Upgrade them, by doing things story related that would awaken those powers (ala Weapons of Legacy), or the DM chooses from the list and adds it on there as a reward for level up.
2) Assemble your own items. This might even let you have a linked set, like the Sword of the Icy Plain, the Armor of the Glacial Shell, and the Frozen Heart Amulet.
The real trick is balancing this, not only in terms of what the items do, but also balancing how to make it not an uber broken thing in and of itself, especially as they grow in power or PCs get more than 1.[/sblock]
Rechan, if you can get hold of the last Worldwide Game Day adventure, do so. ("Journey through the Silver Caves") The skill challenge in it is the best I've yet seen.
Cheers!
