Intimidate in combat: viable?

To be honest if I was DMing for myself, Id allow both intimidate and bluff to work in this situation considering the circumstances.

Fighting a minotaur, you would intimidate, as trying to make yourself seem stronger than them could easily put them in a rage.

Fighting a Wizard, you would use bluff, as trying to convince a wizard you were stronger than them would probably get them to attack someone else, but trying to convince them they were the weak link in the party could reasonably convince them you were an easy target.

Does this make any sense?
 

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"Oh, you have +23? Well uh..the DC's 40, sorry. Oh, you don't like that, eh? Well, then, instead of them surrendering, I'll just choose their action...let's see...how about "doesn't attack you for 1 round, even though he's marked by the fighter"?

No, it instead goes like this:

(At the beggining of the campaign)
Gumphrey: "I want to play this character" (hands sheet)
DM: "Let me take a look... Mhmm... Any reason why you have put so many resources into Intimidate?"
Gumphrey: "I am very scary"
DM: "Oh, ok"

In game preparation:

DM: "Mhmm... Encounter F32 has two Elite monsters with low Will defenses, this is not going to work since Gumphrey has +23 to Intimidate. Instead, lets substitute one Elite for two Lurkers, and let's tweak the other Elite so that his Will defense is better..."

In short, the DM needs to remain fully in control of the game, but there are other ways to do it than just saying "my way or the high way"

...of course, sometimes the DM needs to do that too, but it should not be the first course of action
 
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To be honest if I was DMing for myself, Id allow both intimidate and bluff to work in this situation considering the circumstances.

Fighting a minotaur, you would intimidate, as trying to make yourself seem stronger than them could easily put them in a rage.

Fighting a Wizard, you would use bluff, as trying to convince a wizard you were stronger than them would probably get them to attack someone else, but trying to convince them they were the weak link in the party could reasonably convince them you were an easy target.

Does this make any sense?

Yes, I would allow Bluff to make you seem more like a Striker -- high damage, medium/low defenses (e.g. the ideal target). I would also allow people to use Bluff (opposed by the better of Insight or Heal) to make themselves seem more wounded than they actually are (this can make you seem closer to death, and a better target, or you can play dead and get skipped over).

But I would also allow Intimidate against the wizard -- "Your spells are useless against me! When I close the distance between us, you will be destroyed! Rawr!" -- if you are effective at making the wizard soil his robes, I think an appropriate response is for him to scorching burst you in a fit of panic. You're not going to Intimidate the wizard into charging -- it's a taunt, not a feeblemind.

-- 77IM
 

FWIW, in the game I DMed last week, I allowed all sorts of uses of the Intimidate skill. Of course! Examples included clearing a path through a hostile crowd (during combat), making a suspicious-looking guy back off (before combat), and getting some minions to leave the scene for a short time. It worked great.
 

No, it instead goes like this:

(At the beggining of the campaign)
Gumphrey: "I want to play this character" (hands sheet)
DM: "Let me take a look... Mhmm... Any reason why you have put so many resources into Intimidate?"
Gumphrey: "I am very scary"
DM: "Oh, ok"

This is exactly the place where I'd want to talk through the use of Intimidate with Gumph. I mean, it's a cool skill -- this thread has convinced me I want to see my players use it more. I wouldn't decide we were a bad gaming fit until he accused me of wild, purposeful misinterpretations of the rules. :)
 

Given that we're talking about actions the affected monster could take, that can't be correct. The player doesn't determine monster actions.

This is 4E, the players determine the monster's actions all the time. If they hit, they stun them or put them to sleep forever or teleport them to hell and back, pin them in place, slide them all over. The PCs make the monsters do more things than the DM does.

Technically it's more like

Close Burst Sight
Target: Any bloodied enemy in burst
Attack: Charisma -2 vs. Will

Yes, and can really only be used once, as anyone else in the burst becomes immune.

Close Burst Sight
Effect: Win a fight you're already winning immediately instead of having to roll dice for another half an hour to determine something you already knew.
 

This is 4E, the players determine the monster's actions all the time. If they hit, they stun them or put them to sleep forever or teleport them to hell and back, pin them in place, slide them all over. The PCs make the monsters do more things than the DM does.
The PCs can impose conditions.....and damage too! That's clear enough. But unless the PCs impose the condition "dominate", its the DM that determines the monsters actions.
 

Close Burst Sight
Effect: Win a fight you're already winning immediately instead of having to roll dice for another half an hour to determine something you already knew.

This is exactly why I like intimidate. By and large, the PCs have used it mostly to end fights that had already been going on too long (past the point that player victory was a foregone conclusion.)

Then again, my players are quite understanding when I deem the DC would be next to impossible (a BBEG or a Campaign Villain, for example), so I guess I can see DMs with less demanding players being more annoyed with it.
 

Wow, quite a thread... Interesting too. I have to admit I skipped some of the middle, pardon if I am rehashing anything.

I see both sides of this, Grumpy's and others. He's invested a good bit in this skill and he should expect it to pay off in some fashion. I also agree that a DM is in control of his table. The DM's power does come with responsibility though. He has a responsibility to see to it that Grumpy's character is fun and reasonably balanced so that the other players have fun too. But consider this, if Gumph sat down at the table with a tricked out ranger that ginsued the BBEG in 2 rounds every other encounter and went by the rules of the table he wouldn't gimp the character just because it was likely to outdamage the whole rest of the party.

So Gumph is entitled to get his bennies by the rules and the DM is entitled to make those rules work properly. In this case the DM has 2 large areas of leeway, setting the DC and determining the result. So it shouldn't be a big problem if everyone keeps clear about how it is going to work.

Thus I would sit down ahead of time with Gumph and we would just work out some ground rules. First of all it is clear to me (sorry Nail) that the PLAYER is entitled to specify which of the outcomes he is attempting to get. Just like he would be entitled to tell the DM what outcome he is wanting if he used an Athletics stunt. "I want to try to make the hobgoblin surrender". The DM, just like with any "page 42" type action will decide how that plays out. Success may or may not get the exactly desired results, but the results should be consistent with the players stated goals.

For example the hobgoblin is successfully intimidated and because it has an escape route and knows there are other hobgoblins nearby that could help it, it runs away screaming, goes to the next encounter, and sends reinforcements. The encounter could get a LOT harder all of a sudden! This isn't something the DM should connive to do, but when it best fits the situation it should be fine, just like a character leaping onto a platform might find out too late that even though he made his athletics check the platform is rickety and collapses and sends him plunging into a pit. Usually things will work out mostly to the player's advantage in the natural course of things.

Now, the real nut of the question we would be needing to work out would be what are a fair set of DCs? We already have the basic mechanism in place. Intimidate vs Will +10, and often +15. In the interests of fairness I would codify some of the other possible DM applied modifiers and do it with the player so they understand my reasoning and why they are certain values.

+5 Unbloodied Elite boss monster is present - you don't want to piss off the boss man. monsters will always fight harder when the boss is right behind them.
+10 Unbloodied Solo boss monster is present - And that goes double for the big boss who gets to decide to kill you for being a coward.
(note that these also apply to the bosses themselves, BBEGs rarely surrender etc)
+2 for each bloodied PC - Monsters are not going to surrender when they're winning.
+5 for each totally incapacitated PC - Ditto
+5 if the monsters outnumber the PCs by 5 or more

On the flip side each of these can become a minus for the inverse situation. Dead bosses etc will reduce the monsters morale and make them surrender more easily.

Other special bonuses will be approximately as follows:

Monster is "mindless" and just follows orders, thus has no sense of self preservation at all. Immune to intimidation. You simply cannot intimidate a zombie. It has no fear and can't be threatened because it doesn't value its own unlife. This is rare, but could also apply to at least some constructs etc. as well.

+5 monster is exceptionally fearless or reckless by nature. Red dragons fighting in their lairs, demons, monster which cannot be permanently killed (lich for example).

+2 monster is known for exceptionally high morale and dedication. Usually these are high will as well, but again there are some monsters that are "fanatical" and only give up very grudgingly.

+2 Party is known to kill prisoners and the monster cannot simply flee. Monsters want to live, and surrendering is worthless if it has no reward.

-2 monster is not fighting for any good reasons or cause it cares about. Intelligent monsters are no more likely to throw away their lives for nothing than anyone else.

-5 monster is basically not aggressive or did not want to fight in the first place. There could be situations where a monster is simply cornered and attacked but would not normally have a reason or desire to fight at all. It is simply defending itself and will thus probably surrender if the chance comes up.

Notes on results of Intimidation: Most monsters will generally attempt to flee. In general they will try to act in their own best interests and intimidating them with the surrender option successfully will generally make them believe their cause is lost. They may also surrender entirely if flight is too risky or impossible and they believe they can survive by ceasing to fight. Cowing a monster in battle will cause it to back off or switch targets depending on the situation. It may also be used to demand a parley. The results of a parley will depend on circumstances. Some monsters may offer to allow the party to pass either for a fee or even pay a tribute depending on relative strengths of each side and story considerations. In DM determined situations the monsters may even be willing to switch sides. Such allies will almost always prove to be highly unreliable may well be treacherous.

I think this covers most situations reasonably well. The various modifiers may need to be different, this is certainly not tested (yet). But it should both prevent silly results and at the same time make intimidation potentially quite useful.
 

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