4E, as an anti-4E guy ...

[Obryn]

And what about if you're not tactically-inclined?

It's one of those things that absolutely emerges in play, whether or not you're a tactical monster.

On a related note, for anyone who can answer:
Approximately how many powers have non-battle uses? (Just to clarify: I'm not talking about skill challenge mechanics. I'm asking how many powers (roughly) have mechanics that could be used to do something in a non-battle situation in a useful way.)

Most Utility powers, and few Attack powers. (And all Rituals, fwiw.)

With that said, not every character will take out-of-combat Utility powers... Their relative value pretty much depends on the campaign style, and frequency of combat.

-O

 

[Raven Crowking]

My buddy and I are both pretty anti-4E.

Jeff,

Appreciate the post, and will be reading your comments in the future with interest.

I am not pro-4e myself, but if you are having fun with the game, I am glad you gave it another chance.

Good gaming!

RC

 

[Halivar]

BTW, I forgot to mention in my post: hooray for people playing games they don't like, and still focusing on the fun. I imagine that, given the right DM, I could be brought to enjoy a Palladium game, even.

 

[Herschel]

Good to hear, Jeff. I really HATED what I learned of 4E before it came out, from top-to-bottom. Playing skirmish got me used to the diagonal movement and some of the stauts effects that bugged me so much at first. I still detest "healing surges" from a flavor standpoint, but they just work so darned well as a game mechanic.

Then again, I HATED 3E. I like to build a character idea, play with it for a while, and tweak it a bit when I see something I like better than I had planned or want to try certain things. I find retraining a bit goofy as a concept, but it became a HUGE selling point for me. In 3E, I would start a character, play it for a while, see something cool and exciting and realize I was hosed on prerequisites or feats. Now that those feats are actually split in to feats and powers, I love the flexibility of character building.

As a DM, those 3E adventures I did run were a grind to create. I just borrowed a few things for my 1E/2E hyrid game in the end. 4E has also made DMing a lot less time consuming and more fun. This became a huge selling point too.

4E brought me back to D&D from a place where I really hated its current form. I'm glad too see you giving it a shot too, even though you were in a place you enjoyed.

 

[Mallus]

Moreover, the encounter powers give most PCs quite a distinct feel.

I set my paladin up so that all his encounter powers attack a targets Will. He literally stabs people in the faith! (usually with a battle axe)

 

[Mallus]

And what about if you're not tactically-inclined?

4e has a way of making you tactically inclined... it really is an elegant little combat engine.

Approximately how many powers have non-battle uses? (Just to clarify: I'm not talking about skill challenge mechanics. I'm asking how many powers (roughly) have mechanics that could be used to do something in a non-battle situation in a useful way.)

That's a tricky question. Most powers are explicitly combat powers. My paladin has one purely non-combat power that grants +4 to Diplomacy checks for the duration of an encounter. Outside of combat, characters are meant to interact with the game world using skills (in or out of Skill Challenges), rituals, and pure DM Fiat-adjudicated role playing.

Frankly, that's one of my favorite things about 4e. It breaks D&D players of the (usually unstated) idea that role playing outside of combat is something that requires spells to do.

There's also the pat answer "any power the DM okay's can be used outside of combat". Wizards, in particular, have a number of powers that lend themselves to frequent non-combat use. Like their at-will Thunderwave. You can do a lot (of harm to structures) with a concussive wave of force.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Approximately how many powers have non-battle uses? (Just to clarify: I'm not talking about skill challenge mechanics. I'm asking how many powers (roughly) have mechanics that could be used to do something in a non-battle situation in a useful way.)

My answer may vary from the typical response you will get: Most of the powers have non-combat uses. Because 4E is such a new game it will take time for creative players to find those non-combat uses just like all of us did back in OD&D/Basic/1E.

It takes a DM who has fully embraced the "say yes" attitude presented in the 4E DMG and creative players. Examples of questions from creative players on these very boards and my responses as a "say yes" DM:

1) Can I use my Warlock's Curse in the tavern to intimidate someone into spilling their drink? Sure! Very creative use, I'd link it to a positively modified Intimidate check.
2) Can I use a power that immobilizes/dazes/stuns on a crowd of commoners without hurting them? Yes! By RAW you can choose not to kill with the damage from your powers. I would go even further to allow any player to forgo the damage portion of a power altogether if they wished.
3) The flavor text of my paragon path says I speak with the animals, but I have no powers that allow me to do so, can I talk to that horse? Sure! It doesn't matter to me whether you talk to the townsfolk or a horse to get the info you desire as long as it makes sense in the story.
4) This (paragon-level) power lets me fly 6 squares on a summoned celestial mount to a target opponent. Can I use this ability out of combat? Sure! Just "target" a rock or square of dirt for all I care to have your steed carry you. Not a truly gamebreaking ability for a paragon PC.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

4e has a way of making you tactically inclined... it really is an elegant little combat engine.

So if you hate tactics it's not a good game for you?

That's a tricky question. Most powers are explicitly combat powers. My paladin has one purely non-combat power that grants +4 to Diplomacy checks for the duration of an encounter. Outside of combat, characters are meant to interact with the game world using skills (in or out of Skill Challenges), rituals, and pure DM Fiat-adjudicated role playing.

I'm wondering what the frequency is of powers that could be used out of combat despite not seeming designed for it. What I see with rituals is that previously some were spells that you could just snap your fingers and have a little cool effect. I'm not talking about anything useful in combat, but a utility spell that didn't take minutes to cast and use up money every time just so you could feel cool.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

3) The flavor text of my paragon path says I speak with the animals, but I have no powers that allow me to do so, can I talk to that horse? Sure! It doesn't matter to me whether you talk to the townsfolk or a horse to get the info you desire as long as it makes sense in the story.

This is the sort of stuff I don't get: if you don't need mechanics for this why do you need them for other things? I see the use of mechanics to be an interaction between the player and the game. When it's just a matter of personal interaction I question why the game needs to butt in at all.

 

[Obryn]

So if you hate tactics it's not a good game for you?

I think it's very fair to say that, if you hate tactics, you will hate 4e combat. (I would say the same about 3e combat, FWIW.)

-O