4E, as an anti-4E guy ...

[Negflar2099]

I'm glad you had a good experience with 4e.

It's amazing for me to see the edition wars are finally dying down and as a fellow edition wars veteran I have to say I'm impressed with this post. It's so easy to get caught up in defending your position that you don't even stop and try to see what the other side is saying. I know I'm guilty of that. I defended 4e for so long, and I really do enjoy it, but it's not a perfect game.

Like you, I have a problem with the power system, although for different reasons. I don't have as much of a problem with the sameness of powers as you (although I can certainly see what you mean about some powers doing essentially the exact same thing) but I do have a problem with the affect they have on gameplay. I've had experiences with 4e combat that have really dragged and I think it's mostly because there are so many choices for each player each round. Keeping track of all those powers is hard for the player and doubly so for the DM.

Plus I can see what you mean about the diagonal movement and the idea that all injuries heal in six hours or less. Trying to really picture the world that is represented by the game is hard enough without those sorts of things jarring your suspension of disbelief.

Anyway I hope you continue to have fun with 4e but if not I hope you have fun with whatever version of whatever game you decide to play. We really are pretty lucky. No matter what our tastes in RPGS there's probably a game out there for us. It's a good time to geek.

 

[N0Man]

The diagonal movement never bothered me. I think I was relieved when I heard about it. I understand some were resistant, but there were a small number of anti-4E extremists that simply baffled me with their constant insistence that supporting the new diagonal movement system was an admission at being bad at math. I even saw some say that it would encourage dumber people to play D&D and ruin the hobby...

Lack of injury, I can understand. However, it rarely was a big deal in 3E either. Usually parties would have clerics and Cure Light Wound wands heal everyone at the end of the day and rest up healed (or almost healed) anyway. The exceptions were usually things like curses, diseases, and such.

But don't forget, diseases still do exist in the game, so not everything is necessarily healed every rest. I've heard some suggest house rules for using a system based on the Disease mechanic to make for more long-term injuries that take time to heal. I've also heard of suggestions of wound systems and such.

In the end, it's more hassle than it's worth.

However, I think the real secret to not letting it bother you is stop thinking of hit points restored as wounds being healed. Hit points aren't just your health, but also your will, your morale, and simply plot protection.

Healing to full life after an extended rest shouldn't mean your wounds are all gone, but rather they are all stable, patched up, bandaged, and you're able to keep going. The next time you get crit, that doesn't have to be simply a brand new deadly wound. You can play it as aggravating the old wound.

4E really promotes reskinning what goes on in the story to whatever makes players happy, and just focuses on the mechanics under the hood.

And finally, with more experience, the powers for the different classes begin to feel increasingly different. Not only do they begin to feel different from other classes, but they begin to feel different from other builds in the same class.

 

[vagabundo]

Some thoughts about your post - in no cohesive order:

<Brain Dump>

- I'd have thought that a fluid battlefield would enhance realism, as a battle is not very static and is very chaotic. However, I know, a lot of people find the low level teleport jarring.

- No long lasting wounds is an issue and something that either WotC or a 3rd party should address. I think diseases are the key here (Infected Wound, lose half your healing surges until healed). Diseases really are awesome in 4e and much underused and perfect for house rule band aids.

- Wizards are truly one of my favourite classes in 4e, followed by the tempest fighter. But I think rituals are where it is at!! Rituals really are cool and you dont have to be the wizard to employ them. I dont get to play 4e, but I think whatever class I'd play I would snag the ritual caster feat and a few choice rituals.

</Brain Dump>

And good luck with the game, I think a good DM really makes the difference.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Diagonal Movement: It wasn't something I ever worried about, but in play I noticed how much faster it became to adjudicate movement and positioning. I think the gameplay improvements are worth the sacrifice.

No Permanent Injuries: You could "pretend" that you own something like the 3.x style Wand of Cure Light Wounds.
I understand the concern, but I played 8 years of 3E and after learning what these Wands did, I noticed that there were no lasting injuries except perhaps ability drain in practice. I know that not everyone played this way, though.

Coming up with house rules for injuries - maybe using the disease framework, maybe something else - is something one can easily do. But of course, when you are not the DM, you probably won't be able to establish them (and your fellow players might not like it either. )

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm curious to see further thoughts on this one with more games, as I have found it was one of those issues that many people hated until they played....and then realized they didn't care.

Personally, I still don't like the 4Ed diagonal movement rule...and yes, it does bug me in play. (I don't play 4Ed, but I've played in other games in which diagonal movement is handled the same way 4Ed handles it.)

Then again, diagonal movement in my 3.X games was rarely an issue, since I prefer to use hexes rather than squares.

 

[Thanee]

(1) The diagonal movement rule change.

Heh. We house ruled that one to 1.5 square cost diagonal movement (also used for counting Range and Bursts; not used for Blasts) before even the first game session and still use that house rule, as it makes so much more sense (and works perfectly well).

Only other thing we changed was cover (allies also provide cover to enemies, unless you are adjacent to the ally in question and your target is not, and you are making a ranged attack).


Good to hear that you are giving the system a fair chance (and are having fun doing so).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Gort]

I've gotta say, Keep on the Shadowfell is a pretty bad adventure. It's just fight-fight-fight-fight-fight. That'll give pretty much anyone a bad impression of 4e - there's just too much fighting and not enough plot. But that's what you'll get if you run pre-written modules. I prefer running my own setting.

My idea for lasting injuries would be something along the lines of this:

• When a character fails a death saving throw, he gains a "wound" marker
• One wound marker means a minor injury, two wound markers means a major injury
• Wounds manifest after the fight is over - main reason for this is that a fight in which characters are being knocked unconscious is one that is hard enough already
• Minor injuries would be things like infected wounds (-4 healing surges), cracked ribs (-1 penalty to all d20 rolls), or other similar stuff
• Major injuries are things like broken legs (permanently slowed) or arms (arm is unusable)
• Minor wounds can be removed by a level-appropriate heal check ("The orc dagger left a poison in the wound preventing it from healing", "the titan ripped a mighty gash which takes the skill of a master surgeon to close") but require a day of rest to go away (adjust to taste)
• Major injuries require a rest in a civilised place (taverns, temples of healing, etc) and months of healing. Magical healing can get around this if you don't want to slow the game down too much

You can also use the disease tracker mechanic if you want wounds to get worse if they're left untreated, or you can just ramp up the severity for failed heal checks or time left untreated - so an infected wound that has gone untreated for a week might be -6 healing surges instead.

As for your other issue, I doubt there would be a problem reverting to the 1-2-1-2-1-2-1 model of diagonal movement. I hated 1-1-1-1 until I stopped reading and theorycrafting about the game and actually started playing it, but whatever floats your boat. It shouldn't break anything. Heck, you can play it with hexes if you want. This is your game of D&D after all.

 

[CharlesRyan]

Hi, Jeff, glad you had fun, welcome aboard, and I look forward to your ongoing observations!

I've had a lot of the same issues, and I won't be abandoning some of my other games for 4E. But in my experience 4E is really optimized for a particular type of game, and these issues are not so important in that game type. (Fortunately, that particular type of game is exactly what lies at the core of the D&D experience: kicking down doors, killing monsters, and taking their stuff!)

In fact, 4E is so well optimized to that game type that it's actually brought me back after decades. Here's a little secret: Prior to 4E, I hadn't really played much D&D since the 80s, even during my six years at WotC (both R&D and Brand). I played lots of d20--Modern, Star Wars, CoC, and others--but only a modest amount of honest-to-god D&D, and never a campaign.

I still play lots of other things, but I'm playing two real, true D&D campaigns now as well. I wouldn't use 4E for those other games, because it doesn't generate a play style that works for them. But I'm playing--and enjoying--the heck out of 4E. And the issues that rub me wrong--even the ones I thought would bug me a lot--don't seem to matter that much in the real D&D context.

Hope you have the same experience. Look forward to your next post!

 

[Nikosandros]

I'm curious to see further thoughts on this one with more games, as I have found it was one of those issues that many people hated until they played....and then realized they didn't care.

Quite true, for me. I find it highly annoying on a theoretical level, but during actual play I don't really pay attention to it and it does make counting squares easier. The only time I find it jarring, is in the rare instances when we have to calculate vertical distances.

 

[avin]

Overall, as I said, I rate this first real session of 4E as a positive. I'm surprised at how much so. I'll be updating this thread with each session, and I welcome comments.

Same thing here.

My first 4E experience was as DM. Me and all players hated it. Then I decided to try again, more carefully, knowing nore about the system, and it worked.

I still have some things to say against 4E, fluff in special, but I will be running only 4E games until 5E hits shelves.