4E, as an anti-4E guy ...

[Stoat]

The specil figures cast for Advanced Dungeons & Dragons add color to play and make refereeing far easier. Each player might be required to furnish painted figures representing his or her player character and all henchmen and/or hirelings in the game session.

- AD&D DMG p. 10 (Use of Miniature Figures With the Game)

and

Various products such as modules, playing aids, and miniature figures will be most helpful in establishing and maintaining an interesting and exciting campaign.

Miniature figures used to represent characters and monsters add color and life to the game. They also make the task of refereeing action, particularly combat, easier too! In combination with a gridded surface such as DUNGEON FLOORPLANS (to be published by TSR in the near future), these miniatures will add a whole new dimension to your playing enjoyment. It is suggested that you urge your players to provide painted figures representing their characters, henchmen, and hirelings involved in play.

. . .

Always look for the name Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, and the TSR approval mark before purchasing figures for your campaign.

- AD&D DMG p. 11 (Aids to Playing Advanced Dungeons & Dragons)

and

Physical size and space will dictate limitation upon the number of opponents able to engage a single figure in melee. If Official Advanced Dungeons & Dragons miniature figures are used to represent the creatures involved in melee, then these miniatures will dictate the number of opponents that can be involved.

. . .

Two basic grid systems are shown below, one with hexagons, one with squares. These grids demonstrate how multiple opponents engage a single figure.

- AD&D DMG p. 69 (Number of Opponents Per Figure)

 

[Obryn]

Haha, sucks for them. I use glass beads and pennies and little colored bunnies.

Why do you hate WotC?



-O

 

[Raven Crowking]

Stoat,

A lot of "If you use minis" and "You might want to use minis" =/= "We assume you use minis". In 2e, it was suggested that the DM might want to use costumes, but I don't believe that TSR assumed that costumes would be used.

There is no doubt that TSR wanted to make money, and that they were doing so by licensing out production of AD&D minis, so that, were you inclined to use them, they would indeed like your money.

However, there is no TSR module anywhere that tells the DM where to place minis at the begining of an encounter, nor are minis used in the example combats. They were a bonus if you wanted them, but they were not assumed if you did not.


RC

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I have rarely seen a game played that didn't use minis or some sort of minis substitute. I have an expansive collection of D&D minis, so we use those. Before I had those, we used dice for minis, as I had two shoeboxes filled with dice. We even personalized them, picking a die that most represented our character. My angsty antihero Tinuviel was always the solid black d10. Other times we'd use candy, like Skittles or M&M and as an added bonus when you killed the monster you got to eat it.

The point is minis aren't required, but something on the table was almost always used. Hell, we used dice as minis to represent our characters on the grid when playing WoD: Vampire.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Clearly, our mileage varies.

However, I wouldn't make the mistake of arguing that you personally didn't assume the use of minis. Different groups assumed, or did not assume, their use according to their tastes.

My point is that TSR did not assume thier use.


RC

 

[Wepwawet]

Sounds like quite a surrealistic game setting.

Very versatile, though

 

[Pickles JG]

I have not bought any D&D minis either - I have loads of lead ones that look much better. I would prefer plastics for any number of reasons but there are not many nice plastic minis well GW have plenty but they tend to come in unhelpfully large numbers.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Clearly, our mileage varies.

However, I wouldn't make the mistake of arguing that you personally didn't assume the use of minis. Different groups assumed, or did not assume, their use according to their tastes.

My point is that TSR did not assume thier use.


RC

OD&D and AD&D were very rules light. The fact that the games were light on rules for minis was more an artifact from the games being light on rules overall than any design tenet. I'd say that TSR did assume people were using minis, simply because most people did. The game didn't force you to do it, not by the design but by the fact that OD&D and AD&D were games that were left to the interpretation of the people playing it.

Non-use of minis wasn't anything designed into earlier editions. It was just some random feature that just happened to work out.

The fact that older editions were designed to be interpreted by the players/DMs is definitely a truth, compared to 3E's rules for everything and 4E's tight focus. I don't think miniatures are anywhere near the center of that issue though, just a side effect.

 

[Stoat]

Stoat,

A lot of "If you use minis" and "You might want to use minis" =/= "We assume you use minis". In 2e, it was suggested that the DM might want to use costumes, but I don't believe that TSR assumed that costumes would be used.

There is no doubt that TSR wanted to make money, and that they were doing so by licensing out production of AD&D minis, so that, were you inclined to use them, they would indeed like your money.

However, there is no TSR module anywhere that tells the DM where to place minis at the begining of an encounter, nor are minis used in the example combats. They were a bonus if you wanted them, but they were not assumed if you did not.


RC

I'd certainly say that the 1E DMG was encouraging the use of minis, whether or not minis use was assumed.

The word "miniatures" shows up three times in the DMG's index, and I quoted a few bits from each of the three references. Frankly, I was surprised at how much the book had to say about the topic. I started playing in 1988, and switched to 2E pretty quickly. I could probably count on one hand the number of times I used minis for D&D before 1999.

I'm curious about the costumes reference in 2E. Where was it and what did it say?

If the 2E DMG spent as much space talking about costumes, had referenced Official Advanced Dungeons & Dragons costumes, had included the addresses of vendors who sold those costumes, and had suggested that DM's urge their players to buy costumes, then I'd say that 2E was encouraging, perhaps even assuming, the use of costumes.

Now, I will not argue that from 3E forward miniatures are much more integrated in the game. I can't imagine how you would play 3 or 4E without miniatures.

But I do think you're understating the extent to which 1E encouraged the use of miniatures in play.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I'd say that TSR did assume people were using minis, simply because most people did.

Data, please. I almost never saw a group use minis outside of a convention. Still don't, and our group still plays AD&D.