4E, as an anti-4E guy ...

[ExploderWizard]

We played D&D for 8 years without the use of minis/counters or anything. We wrote marching order on a sheet of paper. Once I moved to civilization (sort of), hobby shops and minis were discovered, collected, painted and used. I have been using minis for the past 21 years in all kinds of games. Collecting/converting/painting is lot of fun on its own.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Haha, sucks for them. I use glass beads and pennies and little colored bunnies.

(emphasis mine)

Sir, the proper term is either Bunnies of Color or Bunnican-Americans!

Cadfan I thought the whole "inches" thing demonstrated an assumption of miniatures use. I don't know why you'd ever write "inches" if you didn't expect that there would be something to measure the inches against, that being either a grid or a tabletop with terrain.

I agree- that is a fairly strong implication from the text of the rules that minis were to be used- either that or we've all been playing that game the wrong way!

Mage: "I cast...FIREBALL"

*pop*

Fighter: "Mage...for the last time- your beachball-sized firecrackers aren't impressing anyone! Pick up your staff and hit the damn orcs!"

 

[Doug McCrae]

When I started rpging in my early teens, we thought the inches in V&V meant actual inches. So the guy with darkness powers could make a globe about two feet across. He actually used it quite effectively, creating darkballs around people's heads.

This is what happens when non-wargamers try to play.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I've seen enough instances of "Gary did it this way" that contradict most reality that I no longer put any stock in that sort of thing.

IOW, that the designers flatly contradict your impression of design intent has no meaning to you. Fair enough, I suppose. Certainly some people feel the same about modern designer statements as well. One is not more irrational than the other.

Actually, the quote makes no such distinction. It only says describe your past gaming experiences. That could be interpreted either way, as "have you ever..." or "have you regularly...". The poll also does not specifically distinguish using minis from using any sort of representation.

Actually, the actual poll does, which is why the note with the asterisk says "(*) Looked at in reverse, this interesting answer tells us that 14% of the gamers who play an RPG >have never played< a combat oriented RPG." If the poll questions was "have you regularly...." this would be incorrect.

(Of course, you can always prefer to believe that WotC cannot properly interpret their polling questions. )


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

Mage: "I cast...FIREBALL"

*pop*

Fighter: "Mage...for the last time- your beachball-sized firecrackers aren't impressing anyone! Pick up your staff and hit the damn orcs!"

How inches were to be interpreted was explicit in the text (for AD&D 1e at least; not sure about V&V).


RC

 

[Ariosto]

Roleplaying outside of combat requires spells? That's a new one on me! Maybe it arose during the 3E era, when from what I saw the vast majority of characters (assisted by the class-mixing rules) were at least tyros at spell-casting -- and the broader notion that anything worth doing was done with number-crunching and dice-rolling was gaining traction.

Miniature figurines per se are not required in any edition, but 4E very clearly and strongly assumes a square grid and markers of some sort. The 3E rules were also, but perhaps more weakly, geared to that setup. The default level of abstraction in old D&D more easily accommodated tactical play without such apparatus.

The use of paper, pencil and map boards are [sic] standard. [The last are for wilderness adventures, Outdoor Survival being recommended for impromptu ones.] Miniature figures can be added if the players have them available and so desire, but miniatures are not required, only aesthetically pleasing; similarly, unit counters can be employed -- with or without figures -- although by themselves the bits of cardboard lack the eye-appeal of the varied and brightly painted miniature figures.

The first edition Dungeon Masters Guide at pp. 10-11 suggests, "The special figures cast for ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS add color to play and make refereeing far easier." Of the Grenadier Models line, it states, "These figures are the only ones which comply in all respects to AD&D specifications and the AD&D MONSTER MANUAL," and urges, "Always look for the name, ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, and the TSR approval mark before purchasing figures for your campaign."

That last "word of warning" to use only OFFICIAL or Authorized products appears three times in half a page! One may consider whether the existence of an in-house line of figurines has any bearing on game design.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

How inches were to be interpreted was explicit in the text (for AD&D 1e at least; not sure about V&V).

Right- it was like a map. A map may say its scale is 1"= 100 miles. AD&D said 1" was equal to a certain amount of feet.

But if you're not using minis (or other physical placeholders on a grid)...what is that 1" referring to? Without minis, you're not messing with scaled down anything- you can just imagine those ranges in your head. You don't need that expression of the game's relative scale.

DM "You see orcs on the hill."

Player "Long range for me as an archer is about 200 yards...are they in my range."

DM "Not yet."

Player "I'll nock an arrow and hold fire until they are, then."

With the actual 1" referent, you're obviously measuring the distance between 2 points on some kind of physical structure...like on a battlemap or a wargaming table.

 

[Obryn]

How inches were to be interpreted was explicit in the text (for AD&D 1e at least; not sure about V&V).

Yep, but I think their point is that the only reason to give measurement in inches is if you're assuming a battle map of some kind...

The first edition Dungeon Masters Guide at pp. 10-11 suggests, "The special figures cast for ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS add color to play and make refereeing far easier." Of the Grenadier Models line, it states, "These figures are the only ones which comply in all respects to AD&D specifications and the AD&D MONSTER MANUAL," and urges, "Always look for the name, ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, and the TSR approval mark before purchasing figures for your campaign."

That last "word of warning" to use only OFFICIAL or Authorized products appears three times in half a page! One may consider whether the existence of an in-house line of figurines has any bearing on game design.

Yep, everything old is new again.

-O

 

[Raven Crowking]

Right- it was like a map. A map may say its scale is 1"= 100 miles. AD&D said 1" was equal to a certain amount of feet.

Actually, the meaning of 1" varied depending upon whether you were indoors or outdoors, and therefore had a different meaning than just saying X feet. This is an artifact of designing from a wargame basis, just as some modern designs unintentionally keep baggage (including spelling errors, etc.) from the 3e SRD. One might say that the Attack Matrixes of 1e are a similar carry-over. EDIT: These are actually two artifacts of the original game that I am glad to see gone.

So, if you're not using minis (or other physical placeholders on a grid) (or even if you are), that 1" is referring to a base number that must be translated to tens of feet or tens of yards, depending upon the situation.

Hence that expression of the game's relative scale.

EDIT THE SECOND: It is a mistake to believe that something derived from a minis game means that the game it is being imported into is also a minis game. This is the same error some folks have made re: the relationship between DDM rules and 4e.


RC

 

[Ariosto]

I thought the whole "inches" thing demonstrated an assumption of miniatures use.

The term was a carry-over from the wargame context, in which "unit" would have been confusing. In D&D, it would not refer to literal inches on the table unless perhaps one were using 15mm figures (uncommon) and the "dungeon" scale. See DMG p.10 for the recommended usage with nominally 1/72 scale figures. True scale would be 1 inch to 6 feet. To account for base widths and easy handling, a scale of 3 inches to 10 feet is recommended (allowing depiction of the typical array of three figures abreast in a 10' corridor). Thus, 12" range in the rules would become a yard on the table if in a dungeon, or three yards outdoors. The difference between ground and figure scale, it is noted, must be taken into account when, for instance, multiple attackers flank a long creature such as a dragon or giant snake.

"Easier to play" is rather in the eyes of the beholder, I think.