Well, of course he didn't stay dead.

I wish he had remained dead, forever.

He was an anachronism.
A 1940s type Captain America who never really changed or became anything new.
I don't think either you or the writer of that blog has ever read Cap written by a decent writer, or you have mainly seen Cap through the prism of bog crossovers and other "epic" events. To claim Steve Rogers never changed is... hyperbolic, at least. To claim that he didn't use modern techniques, or old ones like stealth.... is the claim of someone who hasn't read much of him at all. For example, other than a decent chunk of Brubaker's run, I haven't even read that much Cap since I was a kid in the early 80s, and I've seen him make full use of espionage both in the modern age and in flashbacks to WWII. Heck, I even have a couple of Invaders comics where he was using disguise and stealth. In many of those, the anachronism was operating in reverse. WWII stories where Cap was acting like a guy from the 70s. If you only read Cap during a big crossover, you see him mainly in full "Leader" mode. I have to assume that's where this bizarre impression comes from.
 

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He was an anachronism.
A 1940s type Captain America who never really changed or became anything new.

The author of that piece is, I think, not a real student of Cap, for one thing. Cap has used modern methods. Cap has changed over time (and, in fact, the conflict between his old ideas and his new time, and how he adapted, was good fodder for some of the writers of the past.

Cap never became General America because part of his vision is that Americans can darn well lead themselves, and don't need Steve Rogers to do it, that his power didn't give him the right to set larger policy.

Thus, I think the author completely missed the point of Cap's death.

Yes, Iron Man is a modern leader. He has Vision (no, not the android!), but only in a limited way. He saw what he wanted to reach, and he saw the path to get there, but he failed to give proper weight to the consequences of his drive. The metaphor is about as blatant as possible - the modern leader is instrumental in the death of the ideals on which his society is supposed to be based!
 

Here we're gonna hav'ta completely disagree gentlemen. (I was the author of that blog post by the way.)
And the man (Cap) was certainly an anachronism in my opinion. He never did really change.

It is extremely difficult for me to imagine any military man, even something as silly as a comic book ideal of a military man, who thinks every man leads himself.

I've never seen any important situation ever resolved by every man leading himself. What you get in a situation like that is chaos, not solutions and action. If that were true then Captain America could just go out and make any decisions about any matter he liked, regardless of orders or responsibilities, and then change a mission mid-stream. Which is fine for comic books, but wouldn't ever work anywhere else.

Everyman having strong opinions, and deciding issues for themselves, possibly that will work in certain mundane situations (maybe even quite a few), for a limited period of time. Every man eliding himself in a dangerous, lethal, or vital situation, well, that's anarchy not order. Dispersal of effort, not achievement. By the time somebody decides what to do it's already all over. If everyman is a chief in a fight then how come throughout history American armies aren't lead by the guy who wins the coin-toss? Maybe by the Officer of the Day?

I'm all for independent thinkers, in and out of the military, but the man is just a Captain and always remained one for a reason. Cause he never really grew into becoming a real leader, just remained a sort of static and idealized ineffectual.

As a prime example of this imagine a world, any world, with super-people running around it engaging in fights which tear down entire buildings, cause millions or dollars of collateral damage, and possibly kill dozens of not hundreds of bystanders.

Such a world would quickly demand action and control. To prevent such chaos and destruction.
And for not only logical, but perfectly good and extremely moral reasons.

The only reason that Stark failed is because the writers wimped out on him. Went back to a world vision which would never sustain itself. To an ideal no world would ever really tolerate if anybody were honest with themselves.

You just don't let super-powered people (or any kind of people) run around fighting in civilian areas and causing untold havoc simply because they want to or feel the need to, anymore than you let SWAT teams run around shooting at anyone they choose to because they thought it a good idea, anymore than you let Special Forces roll into Manhattan and blow up half the Financial District because the Rhino needs a good spanking.

Only in comic books does that wash, and even there, if you stop to think about it for three seconds, you know its just plain silly and ridiculous. If you need to kill the Rhino you put a bullet in his eye socket, you don't send in Captain America to tear up the streets and get knocked through some buildings. And you don't fist fight with Hydra, you shoot them dead.

Any Captain I knew who said, "send me in with a shield boys, I think after a half hour of fist-fighting and twenty million dollars of collateral damage I can win this thing," would be busted back to sentry duty, where he deserves to stay. Nothing heroic about endangering innocent civilians and knocking down property to prove you're better with a shield (of all things in the modern world, talk about anachronisms, he carries a shield but can't wear a real ballistic vest) and looks spiffier in a flag costume.

Imagine you're sitting around somewhere one day and a super-powered guys busts in the side of your house or apartment, causes it to collapse in on itself, you're injured in the debris, and the best excuse offered later on is, "well, I didn't neat anybody getting hurt or anything damaged so I fist fought him." To which you'd naturally say, well, you're Captain America, why didn't you just shoot him and prevent all of this damage and potential injury and death from happening in the first place?" And then the reply is, "Do you kiss your mom with that mouth son? I don't go around killing!" No, you just allow it to happen over and over again through the one (in)action that would really stop things like that from happening in the first place. That's a Captain for America? Any age of America? Think that would have flown in the forties either? "Well, I didn't shoot the Nazis or the Red Skull cause I'm not that kinda hero. But I take an awful good picture for Stars and Stripes, don't you think? That's the way we used to do it too. We'd clobberknocker the Nazis til they had enough and learned who's the boss. I don't cotton to Nazis or super-villains, I give em a real good shot to the mouth. That shuts em up good and proper so that they never endanger anyone else again." Hooray, case closed.

My grandfather would have laughed out loud at such silliness and drivel. I laughed just writing it.

If Stark didn't come out sweet smelling in the comic book world it's not cause he wasn't dead to rights. It's cause the writers didn't have to guts to just come out and say what anyone in any world would. You ain't running around untamed on my streets hero just to prove you can take a daily dose of rectal inversion and some sustained head trauma (how come super-heroes so rarely end up punch drunk by the way, I'm just wondering) and so everyone else's insurance rates can sky-rocket. And you ain't killing no kids in your showdowns just because you don't have the guts to put a bullet in the back of Joker's skull. (I like Batman, he's my favorite comic character, but when it comes to actually solving problems and preventing death, he's as juvenile and backwards as any of them. He could have saved countless innocents at any time he choose, if he had the courage, which he doesn't and so he lets innocent after innocent be murdered to assuage his own lack of guts.) Think he'd kill Joker to prevent him from shooting his own parents? Yeah, could be, maybe so? But he lacks the courage to do the same to save the parents or child of someone he doesn't know? Call that heroic? I never would. The innocent child I save who I don't really know derives my efforts as much as my own. I don't know what you really call comic books heroes who lack the fortitude to treat the stranger in the same way and as valuable as their own, but I have to wonder if it's really courage that drives them.

The military though would have the guts. The cops would have the guts. Neither the government nor the people would long have the patience for that kinda thing. Only comic book writers would think it really cool and sophisticated and heroic that Spiderman saved the Green Goblin from his own tragic near-death when he blew up the local elementary school. Cause comic book writers wouldn't have to go to court about it, or face any parents of dead children.

Stark had it right.
You don't save the village by destroying it, or allowing others to do that for ya.
Just cause they wrap themselves in a flag costume and call themselves a hero (which they ain't by action, they just have the comic book title, which is a lot like having the NWA title in actual meaning and effect).

Not by my measure.
Course I still read comic books about super-heroes. They're very entertaining sometimes, but they sure aren't filled with characters worth actually emulating.

And when they do experiemtn with tryign to produce a real leader, like Stark, they quickly emasculate him befor ehe grows up.
 

Fundamentally, that was a rant against 90% of comic books and comic book heroes. You claim at the end to like comic books, but only after lambasting all of the genre conventions.

You are basically espousing the execution of lawbreakers here. I'm fairly sure we don't want the police routinely shooting lawbreakers dead rather than bringing them to trial. Why would we want the Marvel Universe version of the police (for all intents and purposes) killing their enemies? Allowing the ends to justify the means is a very slippery slope. The bloodthirsty have the Punisher if they need that. Some characters should hold themselves to a different set of standards.

For another thing.... you're painting very broad with that moral relativism brush. I know quite a number of military men and women and LOTS of police, both friends and family. They do not all fall prey to the notion that the expediency of killing people who present problems is the right course of action. Sometimes it is. Most often it is not. Heck, there are even "military situations" where killing is a bad move... and some of my friends who have been to war would be the first to say so.

I don't even want to touch the leadership strawman you built. I'm having trouble believing you've ever read even a bad Captain America comic if you can seriously apply this paragraph to Cap.

Everyman having strong opinions, and deciding issues for themselves, possibly that will work in certain mundane situations (maybe even quite a few), for a limited period of time. Every man eliding himself in a dangerous, lethal, or vital situation, well, that's anarchy not order. Dispersal of effort, not achievement. By the time somebody decides what to do it's already all over. If everyman is a chief in a fight then how come throughout history American armies aren't lead by the guy who wins the coin-toss? Maybe by the Officer of the Day?

There is a distinction between leading in a military or tactical situation and dictating policy and the personal behavior of non-military personnel.
 


People make fun of the "boy scout" heroes like Cap and Superman, but not only do I think they're essential to have around, I think they're more important--not necessarily as popular, not necessarily as interesting, but more culturally important--than the darker folks like Batman or Wolverine.
It would be a dull old world if we didn't have a variety of characters. But do you think the need for boy scouts goes beyond mere variety?
 

The military though would have the guts. The cops would have the guts.
So would superheroes if they were real, but they're not.

Jack, you're right, but comic books aren't very realistic. More than the wonky science and existence of magic they have all sorts of weird genre conventions. For example everyone with superpowers is either very very good or very very bad. If superpowers were real, people with powers would be pretty much normal folks in terms of morality. They would serve armies or corporations or ideology or, mostly, self-interest. The more powerful among them would be regulated like military weapons.

It was a flaw in Civil War that the two sides weren't presented more equally. It should've been more like the Trojan War, a battle between two equally honorable, valid viewpoints. It's a problem with Mark Millar's writing in general. He sets up some interesting questions then resolves them (or rather doesn't) with a big punch-up. Maybe it's a failing of the genre.
 

Comic book death

No one stays dead except for Bucky, Jason Todd and Uncle Ben. And Bucky and Jason Todd didn't stay dead.

Pretty funny!

But there are some who stay dead...though, as the article points out, there are still ways to interact with them.

My favorite example was Adam Warlock...until he came back (after I stopped reading comics). As I recall, my #2 on that list, Mar-Vell, is still dead.

See also:
List of dead comic book characters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 


It would be a dull old world if we didn't have a variety of characters. But do you think the need for boy scouts goes beyond mere variety?

Absolutely. I think any and every culture requires heroes that people can (or, arguably, should) aspire to, not merely on a physical level but a moral one.
 

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