Longsword finesse, wait wuh?!

[eriktheguy]

Why would a rogue ever take the Longsword Finesse feat that allows you to use longwords as a light blade (but lose one die of sneak attack damage)? For the same feat the rogue could become proficient with a double sword. The rogue can use all of its powers an sneak attacks through the light blade end of the weapon, just like an eladrin with longsword finesse. Moreover the rogue gains a free +1 bonus to AC for having a defensive weapon (which stacks with 2 weapon defense) and does not lose a die of sneak attack damage. Lets look at the bonuses conferred to a rogue who is moving up from a short sword using a few different feats. I am assuming medium size.

Shortsword to longsword by 'longsword finesse' feat:
-must be eladrin
-lose 1d6 from sneak attacks (OK, lets be honest, 1d8 from sneak attacks)
-[W] increased from 1d6 to 1d8

Shortsword to double sword by 'weapon proficiency, double sword'
-any race
-no loss of sneak attacks
-[W] increased from 1d6 to 1d8
-free +1 untyped bonus to AC (stacks with two-weapon defense)

Shortsword to rapier by 'weapon proficiency, rapier' feat:
-any race
-no loss of sneak attack
-[W] increased from 1d6 to 1d8

As you can see, double weapon is better than longsword finesse by far. Additionally, even proficiency in the humble rapier beats out the longsword (if you are willing to sacrifice the little versatile property). Is there a reason that Wizards decided to cripple a rogues sneak attack with this feat? Did they really think that allowing rogues to spend a feat to change [W] from d6 to d8 was too much, even though any other class can increase [W] with a superior weapon?
Needless to say, this also makes the kukri and the parrying dagger obsolete for anything but pure dagger builds.
Also, I don't think that making the off-hand of the double sword a light blade was a brilliant idea. It might add some flavor to fighters that want to use a variety of powers, but it allows rogues to get increased weapon die and +1 AC with single feat.
I am definitely house-ruling that the longsword finesse feat does not limit sneak attacks. What a stupid call...
To fix the double sword I will release two weapons. One is heavy blade, light blade without the defensive property, the other is heavy blade, heavy blade with the defensive property.

 

[Flipguarder]

I would more call this a problem with double-weapons more than anything else. They just qualify for way too much stuff imo.

 

[Dalzig]

Why would a rogue ever take the Longsword Finesse feat that allows you to use longwords as a light blade (but lose one die of sneak attack damage)?

He wouldn't because the Double Sword is broken slightly overpowered.

 

[Baumi]

Yeah I aggree that double Weapons are simply overpowered, but he still has a point about the Rapier (a very weak weapon since you need a feat for the equivalent of a non-superiour Longsword).

 

[Larrin]

Longsword isn't for eladrin rogues to use longswords, its for eladrins who use longswords to be rogues.

Any Eladrin pure Rogue using a longsword will be below a rapier in most ways, and behind a double-sword 99% of the time.

However, an eladrin ranger that dual wields longswords, swordmage, wizard using a longsword as implement (spiral tower, etc), longsword fighter, etc that wants to (for whatever reason) multi-class into rogue, this feat is worth it. Its a niche feat, but for an eladrin going the whole 'longsword' path (and thus probably having decent dex) it opens up sneak attack and rogue powers for them to use.

 

[eriktheguy]

Yeah I aggree that double Weapons are simply overpowered, but he still has a point about the Rapier (a very weak weapon since you need a feat for the equivalent of a non-superiour Longsword).

The rapier is not weak. It is the rogue's solution to a longsword. Other characters get
longsword:+3 prof, 1d8 damage
Rogues need light blades, they get
shortsword: +3 prof, 1d6 damage

Other characters get
(superior weapon) bastard sword, +3 prof, 1d10 damage
Rogues get
(superior weapon) rapier, +3 prof, 1d8 damage

The rapier is the best light blade damage-wise, and allows rogues to essentially upgrade short swords by taking a feat. The rapier is a good deal for rogues in the same way that a bastard sword is a good deal for fighters.

Then why do eladrin that take the longsword instead of the rapier get a weapon that is worse than a rapeir? Eladrin are supposed to be masters of longswords, yet a rapier deals more damage in their hands? The only choices they have to make the longsword better is Eladrin soldier (made obsolete by weapon focus at paragon tier) or to wield the longsword two-handed to take advantage of the versatile property, which alienates their two-weapon fighting feats. These are lame options and the rapier is still much better.

I don't think that double weapons are too good. They get the defensive property because they are superior, and they get a bonus to the off-hand damage in return for forcing the player to staple two weapons together. longsword + short sword becomes two long swords balanced together. The only unbalanced factor I see is that the double sword is a light blade and can be abused by rogues.

 

[Caliban]

I don't think that double weapons are too good. They get the defensive property because they are superior, and they get a bonus to the off-hand damage in return for forcing the player to staple two weapons together. longsword + short sword becomes two long swords balanced together. The only unbalanced factor I see is that the double sword is a light blade and can be abused by rogues.

Then you haven't seen a double sword be abused by a tempest fighter with Rain of Blows (and multiclassed into rogue for another 2d6)...

 

[Hammerhead]

That sounds more like a problem with Rain of Blows, since you could do the same thing with a Flail for even more damage. You couldn't sneak attack, of course, but the extra damage from the Flail would be better (and you could just use the Ranger MC and actually get to choose your skill).

 

[Stalker0]

Double weapons aside, longsword finesse is a pretty crappy feat to me just in comparison with the rapier.

 

[Starfox]

I find all the deal-sneak-attack-damage-with-unusual-weapons feats really poor. A regular one-handed or versatile weapon is about equal to a rapier; in fact the longsword is basically a reskinned rapier. If you take a superior weapon you've paid two feats for the honor.

I can see reasons to limit this, in order to preserve the feel of rogues as light-weapon-users, but not to this extent. A prerequisite like Str 13, Con 13 should suffice.