QFT. The problem here is in a system where all you have in a stat block is the final bonus to hit (and the damage of course) for a monster how exactly are you supposed to do a "Disarm" without just replacing it with a condition (such as weakened)? How much do you really gain by breaking down a +7 to hit bonus on each monster into +4 STR, +2 Prof, +1 Enhance. The answer truly is....nothing is gained other than increasing the size of each stat block. And this is the explanation the OP's player needs to hear.
D&D 4E Disarm in 4E
- Thread starter N0Man
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QFT. The problem here is in a system where all you have in a stat block is the final bonus to hit (and the damage of course) for a monster how exactly are you supposed to do a "Disarm" without just replacing it with a condition (such as weakened)? How much do you really gain by breaking down a +7 to hit bonus on each monster into +4 STR, +2 Prof, +1 Enhance. The answer truly is....nothing is gained other than increasing the size of each stat block. And this is the explanation the OP's player needs to hear.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
So how do I do my wizard based disarms.. for instance I want a spell where the wizard heated the enemies weapon. And its better in a blast and either they take a point of damage or they drop it. To heck with fighter disarms ;-) me wizard wants it.
Or the one where the cleric commands peace as dominate/charm effect.
Can the cleric do his as an at-will? (sorry I pretty much concluded encounter or daily was required but I think my sarcastic streak is bigger than it used to be.)
Or the one where the cleric commands peace as dominate/charm effect.
Can the cleric do his as an at-will? (sorry I pretty much concluded encounter or daily was required but I think my sarcastic streak is bigger than it used to be.)
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Wepwawet
Explorer
Imagine your friend wanted to play Spock!
So, he must have that special touch power, to put enemies unconscious, and it has to be an at-will because Spock does it whenever he wants!
Also, it works perfectly with Spock's more pacifist and rationalist style.
So, he must have Sleep as an at-will. Right?
Edit:
I mean, Really? Disarm at-will?!
Is it that easy to approach a trained warrior and take out his weapon?
Just like that?
That's the whole reason there are encounter and daily powers in 4E
So, he must have that special touch power, to put enemies unconscious, and it has to be an at-will because Spock does it whenever he wants!
Also, it works perfectly with Spock's more pacifist and rationalist style.
So, he must have Sleep as an at-will. Right?
Edit:
I mean, Really? Disarm at-will?!
Is it that easy to approach a trained warrior and take out his weapon?
Just like that?
That's the whole reason there are encounter and daily powers in 4E
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Thyrwyn
Explorer
regicide had it right on page 1. when you reduce the creature to zero and choose not to kill him, he is disarmed.
The at-will/encounter/daily distribution is an attempt to regulate in-combat events by their significance and impact on the plot. The impact (especially on a PC) of being disarmed has been pretty well discussed: unless the PC is golf-bagging, a disarmed PC is rendered ineffective. The more so the higher his level.
One of the core design philosophies of 4e is to take stronger abilities and make them useable less often, not to make them harder to use.
In any melee characters are constantly trying to trip, disarm, grab, gut, or blind their opponents - anything that will end the fight sooner - they take advantage of any opening they can find. Which power the character chooses to use tells us which tactic they had the best opportunity to try.
If it works for your game - go for it. I suspect it will have significant consequences.
The at-will/encounter/daily distribution is an attempt to regulate in-combat events by their significance and impact on the plot. The impact (especially on a PC) of being disarmed has been pretty well discussed: unless the PC is golf-bagging, a disarmed PC is rendered ineffective. The more so the higher his level.
One of the core design philosophies of 4e is to take stronger abilities and make them useable less often, not to make them harder to use.
In any melee characters are constantly trying to trip, disarm, grab, gut, or blind their opponents - anything that will end the fight sooner - they take advantage of any opening they can find. Which power the character chooses to use tells us which tactic they had the best opportunity to try.
If it works for your game - go for it. I suspect it will have significant consequences.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
Can I pretend not to agree with r, it makes me feel like I don't like 4e when I agree with him.
I'd probably stay with: 0hp? If you decide so, the opponent is disarmed and at sword point instead of killed (or unconscious). Simplest solution.
What I don't really get is that the guy says he's a "simulationist". Does he know that disarming an opponent of his weapon, with which he's trying to kill you with, while you're doing a very precise set of maneuvers in order not to harm him, is WAY MORE difficult than outright try to kill him?
Famous "disarmers" I can think of in literature and movie are all at least paragon level, from Zorro to Errol Flynn. Everyone under that level of skill should have a bad time triyng the stunt.
Any alternate system for disarming, should be outright more difficult than the built in combat system.
If I *really* had to invent on a spot a system I'd go something like this:
- Every monster has a separate pool of "disarm points" equal to his bloodied value.
- When you try to disarm an opponent, you deduct damage from its DP. All special conditions and typed damage are not taken in consideration.
- You must be using a melee weapon (at -2 to hit) or a ranged weapon (at -4 to hit).
- DP are fully "healed" when nobody attacks the monster for a full round.
- When DP go to 0, the monster loses its weapon.
I know this process seems long and difficult to perform, but this is how I think is should be in a "simulationist" scenario. Of course some of the penalties could be offset by feats. Becoming a good "disarmer" should involve devoting most of your feats.
I haven't thought how much the penalty for this should be, but since the process for disarming is difficult, it should be significant.
But as I said, I content myself with the general system. Though some of the powers proposed here are nice. But I would not make them anything less than encounter or even daily. Disarming is too much a signature move to be an at-will.
What I don't really get is that the guy says he's a "simulationist". Does he know that disarming an opponent of his weapon, with which he's trying to kill you with, while you're doing a very precise set of maneuvers in order not to harm him, is WAY MORE difficult than outright try to kill him?
Famous "disarmers" I can think of in literature and movie are all at least paragon level, from Zorro to Errol Flynn. Everyone under that level of skill should have a bad time triyng the stunt.
Any alternate system for disarming, should be outright more difficult than the built in combat system.
If I *really* had to invent on a spot a system I'd go something like this:
- Every monster has a separate pool of "disarm points" equal to his bloodied value.
- When you try to disarm an opponent, you deduct damage from its DP. All special conditions and typed damage are not taken in consideration.
- You must be using a melee weapon (at -2 to hit) or a ranged weapon (at -4 to hit).
- DP are fully "healed" when nobody attacks the monster for a full round.
- When DP go to 0, the monster loses its weapon.
I know this process seems long and difficult to perform, but this is how I think is should be in a "simulationist" scenario. Of course some of the penalties could be offset by feats. Becoming a good "disarmer" should involve devoting most of your feats.
I haven't thought how much the penalty for this should be, but since the process for disarming is difficult, it should be significant.
But as I said, I content myself with the general system. Though some of the powers proposed here are nice. But I would not make them anything less than encounter or even daily. Disarming is too much a signature move to be an at-will.
LostSoul
Adventurer
Personally?
I would say that you need something that you can focus on a single target. Then you unleash the spell on the target (ie. the weapon) and blast it out of his hands.
Something like Thunderwave, being a "whip-crack of sonic energy that lashes up from the ground", wouldn't work; you can't focus it on a weapon.
However, "a silvery bolt of force" sounds like it could knock a weapon out of someone's hands. Though it would be hard to hit that weapon in the right way.
So you allow the wizard to use Magic Missile to blast the weapon, give the target a +4 to his Defense (and let him use Fort if he wants), and if it hits the weapon is knocked out of the target's hands with no damage.
Bigby's Icy Grasp should be able to grab a weapon and yank it from someone, and that would be pretty much the same as a standard disarm. The cool thing about using that spell is that you can move the weapon around.
I agree with much of the sentiment that disarm is a bit too wonky to allow for my tastes, but if you do go with making it into a power I would do this: Require a feat to learn the move, and make "Requires combat advantage" as part of the power.
That way at least the player would have to make use of some strategery to make use of the power, and it should fit the simulationist notion of the creature "leaving enough of an opening to allow itself to be disarmed."
That way at least the player would have to make use of some strategery to make use of the power, and it should fit the simulationist notion of the creature "leaving enough of an opening to allow itself to be disarmed."
I saw Scorpion King again today. The Rock gets disarmed or has his weapon destroyed FREQUENTLY. Turns out he's just as good with his fists or a chair or a stick as he is with a sword. He's just that freaking AWESOME. And next scene, he always had his sword back. That is how disarm works in 4E. It has no noticeable effect on play because everyone is The Rock. Everyone is AWESOME!
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
Oh and not only that.. but minions are there to help remind you that it isnt everyone who is awesome, you can smack em once and bang their weapon from their grip... they will be both rightly afraid and vulnerable.
