Darkness and the Black Dragon - Need advice

[FireLance]

Play the monster as is, and let the players solve it with their own resources. Give them ample warning. The black dragon is definately fightable, just let the players use their brains to solve it.

This assumes that the players have the resources that would give them a reasonable chance to beat the black dragon in the first place, e.g. at-will area attacks and forced movement abilities. Depending on party composition, this need not be the case.

As an example, not sticking in the cloud of darkness is a good idea. Wizard should be AoEing the dragon, which ignores that concealment stuff.

If only one or two PCs have at-will area attacks, staying in the cloud of darkness is a good idea for the dragon, at least while waiting for its breath weapon to recharge - melee and ranged attacks take a -5 penalty to hit, even if the PCs beat the dragon's Stealth check (see below) and know which squares to aim for.

I guess what bugs me about black dragon fights is that the (perhaps apparently) tactically superior option for the dragon will result in quite a frustrating fight for the PCs that don't have area attacks.

But also remember, the dragon isn't hidden without Stealth checks, and the party should make perception checks as minor actions.

Good luck beating the dragon's Stealth modifier of +17, though.

 

[DracoSuave]

Any standard party can beat a black dragon with a combination of readied actions and cover. They simply have to use both. Hide behind cover. Lure dragon out. Readied action plug full of holes. Repeat. This negates the defensive advantage of the cloud of darkness by forcing the black dragon to come at them.

Here's another. Wizard stands six squares away from the cloud of darkness, lobbing scorching burst (or equivalent) while the ranger twin strikes arrows into the cloud. Sure, it's not quick, but the dragon will not stand for that, because the party is out of the range of its attacks. It will take damage, the party will take none. It -has- to come out. Then the readied charges and real attacks kick in, Dragon gets owned, clouds up again, and the party repeats.

Here's another. Wizard casts light on an arrow, ranger fires arrow into cloud. Repeat until dragon is found. Now dragon cannot stealth because of the light source. Now you can locate the dragon.

Force the party to think their way out. Give them the tools they need to properly engage this beast. Let the challenge actually challenge them. Turtling should only work for a black dragon if the party is dumb enough to fall for it. Period.

This assumes that the players have the resources that would give them a reasonable chance to beat the black dragon in the first place, e.g. at-will area attacks and forced movement abilities. Depending on party composition, this need not be the case.

With an Invoker and a Wizard, I would -hope- that this is covered.

If only one or two PCs have at-will area attacks, staying in the cloud of darkness is a good idea for the dragon, at least while waiting for its breath weapon to recharge - melee and ranged attacks take a -5 penalty to hit, even if the PCs beat the dragon's Stealth check (see below) and know which squares to aim for.

And staying away from the cloud of darkness is also optimal for the party. If you feel the need to put the field of battle more towards the party, simply toss in there some cover that they can use. Let them move away from the dragon. Eventually the dragon -has- to come out of hiding to fight them.

Ready an action. Maim dragon. Hit and run. Repeat. Dead dragon.

I guess what bugs me about black dragon fights is that the (perhaps apparently) tactically superior option for the dragon will result in quite a frustrating fight for the PCs that don't have area attacks.

Said dragon's only got an intellegence of 12, and little insight to speak of. Some skill checks might be used to anger the dragon out. Call it a cowardly little kobold. See how long he stays in the cloud. Just because something seems tactically superior doesn't mean that it is what the dragon will necessarily do or even know to do.

Or hell, why is the party there? Is it to take the dragon's stuff? Well, if the dragon wants to stay in its black cloud, then let the party, I dunno, take his stuff. That'll bring the dragon out.

Black dragons hiding in a cloud means the dragon is turtling. The party can then bugger off to cover, and ready some actions to plug that dragon full of holes.

Good luck beating the dragon's Stealth modifier of +17, though.

Only one player has to make the Perception check to glean which square the dragon is in. And having a good perception check at that level isn't really difficult. As well, what else are they doing with their minor actions? If they are located in a good spot, they can spend two minor actions to percieve, and one to ready their attack for when it comes out. Eventually one will spot it, and the death will commence.

Regardless, the black dragon isn't a fight you can just sit down, tank, and spank. It -requires- tactics, but if the DM gives the PCs a modicum of cover, and room for ingenuity, they can out-think the dragon and prevail.

 

[FireLance]

Any standard party can beat a black dragon with a combination of readied actions and cover. They simply have to use both. Hide behind cover. Lure dragon out. Readied action plug full of holes. Repeat. This negates the defensive advantage of the cloud of darkness by forcing the black dragon to come at them.

The problem here is that none of this is evident from the black dragon entry (at least, the one in the Compendium - I don't have my MM handy at the moment). I don't think the DM is advised to ensure the fight takes place in an area where the party can take cover from the dragon's attacks or is told that the party should be able to lure the dragon out from the cloud of darkness with ordinary taunts.

Nor do I think the DM should be advised to do this. Terrain features should be bonus elements that make an encounter more interesting; they shouldn't be required to make an encounter beatable. Similarly, scripted actions and reactions should be included in a monster's stat block if they are required to make an encounter beatable.

Here's another. Wizard stands six squares away from the cloud of darkness, lobbing scorching burst (or equivalent) while the ranger twin strikes arrows into the cloud. Sure, it's not quick, but the dragon will not stand for that, because the party is out of the range of its attacks. It will take damage, the party will take none. It -has- to come out. Then the readied charges and real attacks kick in, Dragon gets owned, clouds up again, and the party repeats.

On the dragon side of the equation, it isn't going to be passive when it comes out of the cloud, either. At the very least, it will have its breath weapon ready, and if the PCs are lining up to attack it, it just means that more will be affected by the attack.

My point is, even if the PCs beat the dragon in the end, there will be frequent periods of frustration for PCs without area attacks.

Here's another. Wizard casts light on an arrow, ranger fires arrow into cloud. Repeat until dragon is found. Now dragon cannot stealth because of the light source. Now you can locate the dragon.

I'm not sure if this will work since the cloud of darkness blocks line of sight.

Force the party to think their way out. Give them the tools they need to properly engage this beast. Let the challenge actually challenge them. Turtling should only work for a black dragon if the party is dumb enough to fall for it. Period.

Why would the party need to be given tools to engage the dragon if any run-of-the-mill party can beat it? If you are prepared to give tools to the party, or have the dragon use sub-optimal tactics, or ensure that the terrain features favor the PCs, why should changing the dragon's abilities or giving the PCs a ritual to reduce the effect of the darkness be any different?

Only one player has to make the Perception check to glean which square the dragon is in. And having a good perception check at that level isn't really difficult. As well, what else are they doing with their minor actions? If they are located in a good spot, they can spend two minor actions to percieve, and one to ready their attack for when it comes out. Eventually one will spot it, and the death will commence.

The dragon can make a new Stealth check every round, and at 4th level, a PC trained in Perception and with an 18 Wisdom will only have a Perception modifier of +11, or +13 if he has a racial bonus. I don't think that's very good odds, even for a relatively focused character.

Regardless, the black dragon isn't a fight you can just sit down, tank, and spank. It -requires- tactics, but if the DM gives the PCs a modicum of cover, and room for ingenuity, they can out-think the dragon and prevail.

I don't see why not. A level 4 encounter shouldn't be much more difficult than another level 4 encounter. If I want the PCs to think and use tactics, I'd use a higher-level encounter. The young black dragon falls outside my tolerance range for how difficult a level 4 encounter should be.

 

[DracoSuave]

The problem here is that none of this is evident from the black dragon entry (at least, the one in the Compendium - I don't have my MM handy at the moment). I don't think the DM is advised to ensure the fight takes place in an area where the party can take cover from the dragon's attacks or is told that the party should be able to lure the dragon out from the cloud of darkness with ordinary taunts.

If you believe the DM is not advised to provide places for cover and terrain features to make battles interesting then you seriously need to reread the encounter design section of the DMG, where the DM is, in fact, advised to do these things.

Nor do I think the DM should be advised to do this. Terrain features should be bonus elements that make an encounter more interesting; they shouldn't be required to make an encounter beatable. Similarly, scripted actions and reactions should be included in a monster's stat block if they are required to make an encounter beatable.

Some of those tactics are viable in an open field without any terrain features.

On the dragon side of the equation, it isn't going to be passive when it comes out of the cloud, either. At the very least, it will have its breath weapon ready, and if the PCs are lining up to attack it, it just means that more will be affected by the attack.

Only if the PCs are all waiting at a singular point. Six squares away from a 6 square wide cloud gives a lot of spreading out space. PCs clumping against a dragon is bad tactics and unnecessary.

My point is, even if the PCs beat the dragon in the end, there will be frequent periods of frustration for PCs without area attacks.

Or, it's 'You all ready your actions? Awesome. After some time of this, the dragon comes out...'

This takes about as long to execute as it does to say that. About ten seconds real time. Seriously.

I'm not sure if this will work since the cloud of darkness blocks line of sight.

Perhaps, perhaps not. Regardless, see below.

Alright. The zone of darkness is a 6X6 area. (close burst 2 around a large creature.) The longest range attack from that spot that a dragon has is it's breath weapon, with a blast 5. So, 6 squares away means the dragon -must- leave the cloud to breath acid on you.

Bear in mind, this illustration is rough, something thrown together in about five minutes. It is by far not the optimal way to execute this for the players, but it's good enough for the purposes of this discussion.

Now look at this diagram. The red circles indicate party placement. High Reflex characters are in the center, because they are most likely to take the brunt of a breath attack. The three in the front are melee chargers.

Here's the thing... the breath weapon is preferable to cloud of darkness. The latter is the real threat. As well, without action points, the dragon -can only do one.- So if he decides to breath on you, he can't put his protection up which gives the party the opportunity to use their powerful attacks.

And if the dragon just decides to cloud of darkness, then he's not attacked your party, and well, that means the party just got some damage on a dragon. That's suboptimal for the dragon.

As you can -plainly- see, optimal tactics for the dragon isn't -wait for the party to be stupid and jump inside.- The party now has the dragon sieged. The party can simply wittle this dragon down slowly over time. The dragon, if he is such a good tactician, knows this. Sure, he might wait for his breath weapon to come up again, but that's about it. He -has- to take initiative.

Why would the party need to be given tools to engage the dragon if any run-of-the-mill party can beat it? If you are prepared to give tools to the party, or have the dragon use sub-optimal tactics, or ensure that the terrain features favor the PCs, why should changing the dragon's abilities or giving the PCs a ritual to reduce the effect of the darkness be any different?

Having a dragon stay in the cloud of darkness is only optimal for the dragon when the party doesn't react to it accordinly. The dragon is beatable in a flat field with no terrain. Adding terrain doesn't change that, but gives the players more options.

You should also note, it gives the dragon more options as well.

The dragon can make a new Stealth check every round, and at 4th level, a PC trained in Perception and with an 18 Wisdom will only have a Perception modifier of +11, or +13 if he has a racial bonus. I don't think that's very good odds, even for a relatively focused character.

That's if you're only making one perception check. Five players making a total of ten checks a round from a safe distance (and it IS a safe distance) is a different story.

I don't see why not. A level 4 encounter shouldn't be much more difficult than another level 4 encounter. If I want the PCs to think and use tactics, I'd use a higher-level encounter. The young black dragon falls outside my tolerance range for how difficult a level 4 encounter should be.

Compare a black dragon to the damage output of five kobold slyblades. The dragon's weak in comparison. The kobolds have as many hitpoints, but each -individual- kobold can put out 4d6 damage + 5 ongoing acid... if they have combat advantage... now is it hard for kobolds to get Combat advantage? Shifty is your answer to -that-.

Compare 20d6 damage + 25 ongoing acid damage to what a single black dragon puts out. Yeah. Kinda puts -that- into perspective.

 

[FireLance]

If you believe the DM is not advised to provide places for cover and terrain features to make battles interesting then you seriously need to reread the encounter design section of the DMG, where the DM is, in fact, advised to do these things.

As a general rule, yes. As something to balance the odds for specific encounters, no. And that's my point: an encounter shouldn't require special terrain for it to be balanced.

Only if the PCs are all waiting at a singular point. Six squares away from a 6 square wide cloud gives a lot of spreading out space. PCs clumping against a dragon is bad tactics and unnecessary.

But the PCs who charge the dragon will come within range of its breath weapon.

Or, it's 'You all ready your actions? Awesome. After some time of this, the dragon comes out...'

This takes about as long to execute as it does to say that. About ten seconds real time. Seriously.

The assumption is that the ranger and the wizard (or other PCs with ranged and area attacks) will be attacking while the dragon is rolling to recharge its breath. The melee-focused PCs will have to resort to inferior ranged attacks or just wait.

As you can -plainly- see, optimal tactics for the dragon isn't -wait for the party to be stupid and jump inside.- The party now has the dragon sieged. The party can simply wittle this dragon down slowly over time. The dragon, if he is such a good tactician, knows this. Sure, he might wait for his breath weapon to come up again, but that's about it. He -has- to take initiative.

Right, but while he's waiting, he's frustrating the melee-focused PCs, and when he comes out, he has a potent weapon recharged.

That's if you're only making one perception check. Five players making a total of ten checks a round from a safe distance (and it IS a safe distance) is a different story.

Without Skill Focus and a 20 Wisdom, +11 or +13 is about as good a Perception modifier as a 4th-level character is likely to get. Characters with lower Wisdom and which are not trained in Perception have only a miniscule chance of beating the dragon's check.

Compare a black dragon to the damage output of five kobold slyblades. The dragon's weak in comparison. The kobolds have as many hitpoints, but each -individual- kobold can put out 4d6 damage + 5 ongoing acid... if they have combat advantage... now is it hard for kobolds to get Combat advantage? Shifty is your answer to -that-.

Compare 20d6 damage + 25 ongoing acid damage to what a single black dragon puts out. Yeah. Kinda puts -that- into perspective.

It isn't that black and white. In order for a kobold slyblade to get 4d6 damage plus 5 ongoing damage, he has to hit with two attack rolls with combat advantage. If he hits with one, he only deals 2d6 damage with combat advantage. A black dragon's breath weapon needs to hit only once to deal 1d12+3 plus 5 ongoing acid damage, and if he's been charged by three melee characters, he can probably attack all three at the same time. In addition, the area attacks which are most effective against the dragon may sometimes deal double or triple damage to the slyblades, depending on how many the PC can catch in the blast. The slyblades also have AC and defences about 4 points lower than the black dragon (before taking cloud of darkness into account), and five slyblades collectively have about 210 hit points, about 14 less than the dragon. There may be a bit of "wastage" because the PCs may deal more damage than is necessary to kill a slyblade, but the slyblades' collective damage output also goes down by about a fifth each time one is killed. On balance, I'd say that the young black dragon is a lot tougher.

 

[DracoSuave]

As a general rule, yes. As something to balance the odds for specific encounters, no. And that's my point: an encounter shouldn't require special terrain for it to be balanced.

Nor is it necessary. Cover is one of those things usable by both sides, and it introduces meaningful choices to both the players and the dragon. However, cover isn't necessary.

But the PCs who charge the dragon will come within range of its breath weapon.

And PCs who try to fight the dragon in the cloud are also within range of its breath weapon. Except the dragon has combat advantage and is nigh impossible to hit.

But the dragon can't move out on its turn and breath midmovement unless he is bloodied. And the dragon's moving out to breath on the players anyways. So the options are 'Charge the dragon and get breathed on' or 'Don't charge the dragon and get breathed on' or 'Attack the dragon where it is nigh invulnerable and get breathed on.'

You can't avoid being breathed on. Just pointing that out.

The assumption is that the ranger and the wizard (or other PCs with ranged and area attacks) will be attacking while the dragon is rolling to recharge its breath. The melee-focused PCs will have to resort to inferior ranged attacks or just wait.

The thing is, this is making attacks against a foe that is not making attacks back. It doesn't matter if you can only hit on a natural 20, if you are taking in 0 damage per round, you will outlast that opponent. It's not fun, it's not exciting, it's not cinematic, but it's certain victory.

And the dragon knows it.

Right, but while he's waiting, he's frustrating the melee-focused PCs, and when he comes out, he has a potent weapon recharged.

And they aren't being frustrated by the Cloud of Darkness?

Melee characters forcing a dragon to fight on their terms is a lot less frustrating than hacking at it inside a cloud of darkness. When players make plans, and execute tactics, that can be -very- fun.

Without Skill Focus and a 20 Wisdom, +11 or +13 is about as good a Perception modifier as a 4th-level character is likely to get. Characters with lower Wisdom and which are not trained in Perception have only a miniscule chance of beating the dragon's check.

Agreed. But only one needs to beat the Stealth check to point out it's squares. Meanwhile the dragon's doing -nothing- to them, because the party is out of range of the dragon. So, the party has the advantage still.

It isn't that black and white. In order for a kobold slyblade to get 4d6 damage plus 5 ongoing damage, he has to hit with two attack rolls with combat advantage. If he hits with one, he only deals 2d6 damage with combat advantage. A black dragon's breath weapon needs to hit only once to deal 1d12+3 plus 5 ongoing acid damage, and if he's been charged by three melee characters, he can probably attack all three at the same time. In addition, the area attacks which are most effective against the dragon may sometimes deal double or triple damage to the slyblades, depending on how many the PC can catch in the blast. The slyblades also have AC and defences about 4 points lower than the black dragon (before taking cloud of darkness into account), and five slyblades collectively have about 210 hit points, about 14 less than the dragon. There may be a bit of "wastage" because the PCs may deal more damage than is necessary to kill a slyblade, but the slyblades' collective damage output also goes down by about a fifth each time one is killed. On balance, I'd say that the young black dragon is a lot tougher.

The black dragon is tougher to hit... but on the other hand, five slyblades can get the drop on a character, and assuming a 50% hit rate, and even if no slyblade gets both attacks in, that's still 10d6 to a single character in a single round, which in turn, translates to an average of 33 damage, which is a certain threat to that character. If it works out instead that a kobold gets two hits in, and another gets none, that's even more damage on top of that. The dragon simply can't do that level of -concentrated- damage. So, while players can drop a kobold and take it out as a threat and reduce its damage, so too can the kobolds do that to the players.

It's not as simple as 'Dragon better' and I agree. But the dragon can't put out the same amount of damage as a team of slyblades, not every single round. The slyblades don't need concealment or cover to do their bad deeds.... tho it helps a lot.

The players have the advantage of range on the dragon. The victory is inevitable for the players if the dragon hides in the darkness. A single level 1 warlock with eldritch blast will slay this dragon if he hides in the darkness, tho it will take a long time. So therefore it is by far NOT optimal for the dragon to hide in the darkness from the players. And the dragon is smart enough to realize that.

If this is the case, then the optimal tactic for the dragon is NOT to turtle in the darkness, but instead to use it to cut off places he doesn't want the players to be. Oh, the players have set down a healing banner? -THERE- is where you place the cloud of darkness. Oh, the players are using your own deathtrap against you? -There- is where you place the cloud of darkness. Then the players have to move into less advantageous locations. The dragon then leaves to harass the players.


So, let's recap.

It is frustrating for the players if the dragon stays in the darkness.

It is defeat for the dragon if the dragon stays in the darkness.

Therefore:

There is no value to the game to having the dragon stay in the darkness.

So why is this a problem in your games?

The answer to the Dragon fight is -really simple.- Use tactics. This works on both sides.

 

[Lord Ernie]

While a young black dragon is certainly beatable, even if hiding constantly in his Cloud of Darkness, it makes for an intensely boring fight. Worse, often enough half of the party has very little effect in such a fight, considering melee and ranged attacks have -5 to hit against it, and they have to make a perception check (vs. a +17 stealth check, which is huge) to even know where he is.

We fought one once, with a party of 5, consisting of cleric, wizard, warlock, rogue, and fighter. The wizard was the only one contributing to the majority of the fight (the fighter tried, but seldomly hit). It turned into a battle of attrition, with the warlock and the cleric readying actions, and the wizard trying to enlarged thunderwave it out of the cloud (it didn't help that he never made his save vs. Frightful Presence). After 10 rounds or so of trying this, wearing it down to bloodied, and running low on healing ourselves, we fled (out of boredom as much as out of desire for self-preservation).

 

[Klaus]

One often overlooked option (and how's THAt for 4 "o" words in a row? ):

Alchemical Items. A handful of "grenades" or tanglefoot bags, etc, and the dragon will find his darkness unusable.

It'd help if we knew what powers the party had, Dr. Sage!

 

[FireLance]

So, let's recap.

It is frustrating for the players if the dragon stays in the darkness.

It is defeat for the dragon if the dragon stays in the darkness.

Therefore:

There is no value to the game to having the dragon stay in the darkness.

So why is this a problem in your games?

I think we are talking about different tactics. The tactic I had in mind is:

Hide in darkness while the breath weapon recharges, then leave the cloud and target as many PCs as possible with the breath. Repeat.

The problem with this is:

While in the cloud of darkness, the fight is very frustrating for many (most?) PCs. A normal party of PCs will find it difficult to hurt the dragon significantly while it is in the cloud, so it can afford to wait (average: two rounds) for its breath weapon to recharge before emerging.

 

[Lauberfen]

The black dragon is wrong, especially at this level.

The cloud effect is wrong, period- the dragon never needds to show itself, it can just cast another cloud where the party are, with no gap between, and wander around taking them down.

The dragons numbers don't even add up- +17 stealth at 4th level? And other defences relatively better comparred to higher level black dragons.


Against anything but a highly prepared party, the black dragon is a TPK, or at least a fight where you have to retreat for multilple long slogs.


I'm glad you started this thread- if our DM had, our first party would probably still be alive now.