Darkness and the Black Dragon - Need advice

[ilmoin]

Or just go ahead and change the power: make it an effect which heavily obscures the area instead of totally obscuring. The characters will still need to be adjacent if they don't want to take the total concealment penalty, but if they are next to the dragon then its only -2 for concealment instead. Much simpler, much more balanced and it should make the fight difficult but still fun, whereas right now the Black Dragon is, as you've pointed out, much too difficult to kill.

 

[LightPhoenix]

I don't know how the Black Dragon's darkness works (DM asked me not to read the MM). However, I'll share a recent example from our game with darkness.

We were fighting some kind of striker that made areas of darkness and hid in them (if you know what it is, you can reference the creature yourself). Now, I personally like to think that, after the surprise round badness, our DM sensed our frustration with the darkness. He's a good DM (and I will take the bonus XP now ).

Anyway, the first thing my wizard did was cast light. The DM explained that the light could help with the darkness... but the shadow things could restore their darkness as a free action on their turn. So, when my turn came up, the light dominated. When the shadow things' turns came up, the darkness came back on. With some well-executed delays, it turned into a great battle with lights going on and off, where everyone rushed to go after me and before the shadow things. Then the lights went off, and Bad (tm) happened. I actually wrote it up for our group, and if you need more inspiration I'd be happy to post it.

 

[OchreJelly]

It gets worse if you give the dragon a pool of water to lair near (as featured in a published adventure). The dragon could use the darkness cloud, and then stealth move into the pool so he can sneak around the battlefield popping out of the water to engage choice targets. Hey, he is a lurker after all!

But really getting the dragon out of his zone is the smart player's tactic. Some useful tactics:
- Thunderwave (if the wizard is feeling gutsy to get close enough); but really any power that pushes or slides.
- the ranger can ready his actions for when the dragon is pushed out.
- Make the dragon not want to stay where he is. Wall spells like Wall of Fire or Blade Barrier are nice here.
- For classes not heavy on burst / blast effects, they can shore up their weakensses by purchasing consumable grenades like alchemist fire. This assumes they know what they are up against.

 

[Dr_Sage]

Heh. We fought a black dragon with that annoying darkness zone last week, and to top it all off, the fight was in an area with cliffs and a river where the dragon could hover out of melee reach with ease. The dwarf fighter, dwarf paladin and dragonborn warlord had a tough time doing much there, while the elf cleric (moi) and elf ranger at least managed to fight back decently. At least we had the better ranged attacks, so we could force the dragon to come to us, where the meleers could also attack.

I think there is actually a feat to counteract concealment with radiant powers in Divine Power, but if the cleric does not have it by chance, that won't help much, of course.

Bye
Thanee

Hey!

Just found this (too high):

CLINGING RADIANCE

Prerequisite :11th level, any divine class​

No concealment with radiant prayer.


And this (fits for a special item):

Revealing Light ​

​

​

Cleric Attack 5​

A narrow beam ​

o/brilliant blue-white light lances down to illuminate a foe that seeks the shadows.
Daily • Divine, Implement, Radiant
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack : Wisdom vs. Reflex. The attack ignores concealment
and cover.
Hit: 3d6 + Wisdom modifier radiant damage.
Effect: The target takes ongoing 5 radiant damage and cannot become hidden (save ends both).
​

 

[Dr_Sage]

Or just go ahead and change the power: make it an effect which heavily obscures the area instead of totally obscuring. The characters will still need to be adjacent if they don't want to take the total concealment penalty, but if they are next to the dragon then its only -2 for concealment instead. Much simpler, much more balanced and it should make the fight difficult but still fun, whereas right now the Black Dragon is, as you've pointed out, much too difficult to kill.

Hummmmmm great idea. Simple, effective, and keeps the flavor as it is.

Giving me 2 options:

1- keep the dragon as it is, is but allow a ritual or other effect (like many suggested) that diminishes the effect, making a lurker fight. Forcing the monster to actually roll for stealth checks, and valorizing the characters with high perception (good ears) and insight (sensing the dragon tactics).


2 - Same as above, but altering the power itself. It seems well balanced for a heroic level monster. In this case I could keep the older versions of the dragon unchanged.

PS: I am assuming that light spells does not work in the magical darkness of the dragon. Am I wrong? Becuse If I am wrong, them, problem solved!

PPS: Thunderweave is THE counter for that creature: close attack (ignores the penalty) and pushes. Only issue: the wizard is destruction with low wisdom, but great idea.

PPPS: If they are smart and pay attention to the campaign clues, they will know about a powerfull shadowfell-style creature, but they will most likely not be able to know its a dragon.

 

[Klaus]

To all that suggested rituals and so: great idea and fits the theme.

Even if it's a temporary effect.

I have aways enjoyed the presence of ritual magic in the fiction movies/books (The Mummy comes to my mind), but DnD in previous editions was not the best system to use this story elemment.

Actually its one of the main reasons why I have played HARP for 3 years, instead of DnD 3.X. Its a system where ritual magic is easly introduced as a story elemment.

Thanks to all and if someone have more ideas pls fell free.

Think of the possible powers that "fill up" squares, like summoning spells, companions, spirits, etc.

Also, I agree with the idea of giving a Young Black a darkness that only lightly obscures (+2 defenses) instead of completely block vision.

 

[Turtlejay]

the first thing my wizard did was cast light. The DM explained that the light could help with the darkness... but the shadow things could restore their darkness as a free action on their turn. So, when my turn came up, the light dominated. When the shadow things' turns came up, the darkness came back on.

Personally I prefer player produced solutions like this one, rather than a DM created ritual or spell. Sure, light doesn't work like that RAW, because it is a gimmick. If a player wanted to use light to counteract the darkness of a dragon, I'd treat it like the Dispel Magic utility and make them roll.

Honestly, the dragon is Large, and the area of darkness is 5x5. At most he is one bare square away from its edge. Attacks that push 1 put him right at the edge, and anything beyond pushes him out. This is his *challenge*. He is not going to stay out of range like the blue dragon, or impose status effects like the green, he is going to hide in his cloud and attack for greatest advantage, that is the role or a lurker. The PC's need to think smart and outmaneuver this guy to beat him.

The Heroes of Fallcrest and other stories: 11/22 Actual Play

That is the actual play of our black dragon fight. We were level 4. The relevent part:

The dragon fight was not too tough, Dan's NPC's daily allowed us to shift our allies, and Jesse's daily gave us all +5 to hit (!). Mackenzy was able to trick strike the dragon out of the cloud, and suddenly instead of -4 or more to hit we were at +5. Dailies were used, crits were rolled, and Chelsea ended up dropping him.

So, my experience was perhaps abnormal in a party with 2 warlords, but even trick strike was enough to defeat his darkness cloud.

Jay

 

[FireLance]

Honestly, the dragon is Large, and the area of darkness is 5x5. At most he is one bare square away from its edge.

I've always interpreted the area of darkness to be 6x6 since a close burst uses the creature's space as its origin square (contrast with a close blast which uses a square within the creature's space as its origin square). This interpretation would also allow an ancient black dragon's acid gloom (the higher-level version of cloud of darkness) to function more effectively. If it only covers a 5x5 area, the Gargantuan dragon will always be at the edge of its acid gloom - making it not a very effective hiding place.

Attacks that push 1 put him right at the edge, and anything beyond pushes him out. This is his *challenge*. He is not going to stay out of range like the blue dragon, or impose status effects like the green, he is going to hide in his cloud and attack for greatest advantage, that is the role or a lurker. The PC's need to think smart and outmaneuver this guy to beat him.

While forced movement abilities are an important part of a healthy and balanced suite of selected powers, I would hesitate to use a monster for which the successful use of specific abilities makes the difference between beatable and nearly impossible. For this reason, I seldom use black dragons and blue dragons, and I use wraiths only sparingly and in small numbers at a time.

In addition, and IMO, a lurker that spends all its time in "lurk mode" makes for a boring fight. A lurker's abilities should encourage it to dynamically alternate between "lurk mode" and "attack mode", and require the party to adopt different tactics to deal with each.

 

[DracoSuave]

Play the monster as is, and let the players solve it with their own resources. Give them ample warning. The black dragon is definately fightable, just let the players use their brains to solve it.

As an example, not sticking in the cloud of darkness is a good idea. Wizard should be AoEing the dragon, which ignores that concealment stuff.

But also remember, the dragon isn't hidden without Stealth checks, and the party should make perception checks as minor actions. The black dragon isn't -as tough- if the party has a plan.

 

[DracoSuave]

Play the monster as is, and let the players solve it with their own resources. Give them ample warning. The black dragon is definately fightable, just let the players use their brains to solve it.

As an example, not sticking in the cloud of darkness is a good idea. Wizard should be AoEing the dragon, which ignores that concealment stuff.

But also remember, the dragon isn't hidden without Stealth checks, and the party should make perception checks as minor actions. The black dragon isn't -as tough- if the party has a plan.