Darkness and the Black Dragon - Need advice

[Mesh Hong]

A long time ago I ran an encounter with 2 black dragons, one at level 10 (standard) and one at level 8 (non standard - didn't have cloud of darkness power). My level 10 group made mincemeat of both of them (even level solos being a completely different discussion I know)

As I say it was a long time ago but I seem to remember that they let it play hide and seek for a while, readying actions to pagger it whenever it stuck its head out of the cloud then when it was bloodied (which wasn't that long) they showed it who's boss. Basically the Warlock was able to use Howl of Doom to push the dragon out of its darkness and the rogue was able to use Positioning Strike to move it away from the darkness, then the paladin used Crown of glory to effectively lock it down by slowing it.

A bloodied, slowed and surrounded black dragon hasn't really got that much to gain by spending its standard action activating its cloud of darkness, it would be much more interested in desperately trying to take any of its murderers with it to the grave.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Its a lurker - its supposed to, you know, lurk... Therefore having powers that allow it to act as that role makes sense. After all, attacking, hiding until the right moment, then attacking again is exactly what a lurker should be doing.

Now, some parties may find that playstyle less exciting - personally, if played right, I find it a nice change from the usual "run up and bash them until they are dead" ecounter-style.

Personally, I have more problem with blue dragons, which really have NO reason to ever be within melee range. Breathe, fly off, recharge, fly back, breathe... rinse and repeat. IMHO, a blue dragon encounter takes very careful planning if you want to prevent the dragon from being tied to the ground but still want melee characters to participate meaningfully (and by this, IMHO using a basic ranged attack every round is not meaningful participation).

 

[Obryn]

While a young black dragon is certainly beatable, even if hiding constantly in his Cloud of Darkness, it makes for an intensely boring fight.

This is my issue with it, precisely. I agree it's beatable, and that hiding in a cloud of darkness the whole battle is a losing tactic, but it's a losing tactic that takes a damn long time to lose.

-O

 

[OchreJelly]

The cloud effect is wrong, period- the dragon never needds to show itself, it can just cast another cloud where the party are, with no gap between, and wander around taking them down.

It sounds like your DM either ran a modified dragon, or was running it incorrectly. The dragon should not be able to cast a cloud where the party is. The cloud ability is close burst 2 which is centered on the dragon.

It also requires a minor action to sustain the cloud. I suppose the dragon could keep multiple clouds up if it wants to spend all of its actions sustaining them.

 

[DracoSuave]

Again, I reiterate.

The players choose where to fight the dragon.

If they want a boring slug fest, they will walk into the cloud and miss the dragon a lot, getting knocked around by the dragon's extra damage while the dragon kills them with impunity.

If they want something exciting, they will run away from the cloud, and the dragon has to come out to engage them. Yes, it generally comes out with a breath weapon, but at that distance away, the party can mitigate the pain using good tactics. Let's say there's a designated order of charging.

One of the fighters on the extreme edge charges it the moment after the dragon shows it's face. The dragon either breaths on the fighter, or... no. The dragon has no choice. Everyone else is out of range, and the dragon cannot move any more if the fighter hit it. And if the dragon keeps moving to get the others, the fighter WILL hit it, and stop it. Not a good spot for the dragon.

The dragon's either going to Cloud of Darkness again, or attack the fighter. Then everyone else swarms around the dragon, spreading thin to avoid damage from the Cloud. Ranged attackers stay where they are.

Every complaint about the dragon, every single one, completely ignores how the cloud is immobile, and the party is not. The dragon can do -nothing- to keep the party inside that cloud, except for OAs. The party has absolutely no reason to stay in the cloud, tacticly, so the dragon has to come out.

Now, of course, the dragon can use it's swim/flight abilities and the terrain to make the fight interesting. Cloud becomes a dynamic ability, rather than a static terrain.

Any tactic that can be defeated by a singular level 1, hell, an invoker with enough time on his hands is not an 'optimal tactic.' Stop treating the dragon like it is.


If the dragon is surrounded, bloodied, etc, I'm going to say that the dragon -would- use Cloud of Darkness.... and then fly away to fight another day. He knows he's in trouble at that point.


If all the dragon does is, if you use the tactics that are proven to damage it, wander out, get hit, then cloud of darkness, then the party is winning that fight. The dragon is spending its standard actions defensively rather than offensively. The party answer to -cloud of darkness- is always 'Go away from the cloud of darkness.' They have -no- reason to stay in there. None. Would the party stay in a wall of fire just to fight a wizard, or would they 'Walk away from it' in order to engage said wizard? The black dragon is designed around the idea that staying in the cloud makes no sense. But then the dragon can use its stealth to -charge from the cloud- which makes for a more dynamic fight.


The simple problem with the black dragon encounter is that it doesn't tell the players how to beat it. Show me a monster that -does-. Regardless, any party that stays in a Lurker's equivalent of a Wall of Fire desires to burn to death. The dragon kills headstrong players who don't approach a tactical game with tactics--any one else uses common sense and the fight immediately becomes interesting again.

'But the party could spend tons of rounds waiting for the dragon boohoo' but this doesn't take long at all. 'So you're all gonna wait for the dragon?' 'Yeah.' 'Okay, a minute of quiet eeriness passes... SUDDENLY...'

If those rounds passing frustrate your players, that's because you, as a DM, didn't use your DMness well to lower the frustration, chose not to have the dragon come out, and chose to keep the fight boring -on purpose- just to goad the party back into the cloud of darkness.

Your melee line doesn't have to be bored. Instead, make them -scared-. Scared meleers are not bored meleers.

 

[Akaiku]

Silly question, but you CAN make perception checks to see the dragon? You don't have line of sight, ya know? I ran across that with my shaman, as I couldn't send my spirit companion in after it, as it'd wink out from lack of LOS. Also, I ran into a situation where a similar cloud made it so I couldn't be healed, as the cleric didn't have LOS to me.

 

[DracoSuave]

You don't need LOS to make perception checks. Which, if the dragon is turtling, you have the time to do with impunity. If you can't see something, you are still aware of its location so long as they didn't Out-stealth your perception. Seeing as your party members can't stealth against the dragon, there's no reason for them to stealth against their own team.

Moveable conjurations don't become dispelled by a lack of Line of Sight. You don't need to be able to see a spirit companion to keep it summoned. And the cleric doesn't need line of sight to affect allies with its spells, if he is aware of their location.

You're confusing Line of Sight with Line of Effect, which -would- block these things.

 

[Skallgrim]

I'm in the camp that sees no problem with the dragon too.

If the dragon decides to "hole up" in his darkness, the party can retreat, either to cover, or even outside of the encounter area. They have healing surges, and the dragon has ONE, which he can only use in an extended rest. Don't give him one. If, for whatever reason, you have some damn dragon who WON'T fight a party anywhere but his cloud of blackness, then they just keep interrupting him every few minutes with some ranged attacks, and gradually, he dies.

Yes, this is insanely boring. That's why you DON'T do it as a DM. Don't decide to have the dragon use a tactic which will ultimately result in a lame, boring defeat of the monster.

Use the darkness to confound a few melee opponents. Use the darkness to allow the dragon to maneuver around a bit. Use the darkness to allow the dragon a moment of respite to regain a breath weapon attack. Don't use it as a continual shield of "-5 to hit me".

The players should be smart enough to see how this works. Move away from the darkness, and ready an attack, or take cover and go on Total Defense. Split up in two directions, so if the dragon emerges, it can only approach one group. Use zone powers, cojurations, pushes, pulls, or slides.


I really don't think a party needs a magic ritual or item specificially to overcome one attack power of one opponent in one fight. I don't think the Black Dragon requires that, either.

 

[Dr_Sage]

To Claudio: the power list would be extensive, but they don't have much in the forced movemment department. As you can see they dont have a fighter or warlord, and the wizard's phantom bolt can't effectivelly used in this situation (LOS problem).

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I am happy to see that I am not the only one who sees issues with such creature, not becuse it's unbeatable - no. But becuse the fight can be extra-boring for 1/3 of most parties.

Many sollutions proposed or powers mentioned so far (like crown of glory) are simple not for the 4th level party.

I fully agree that the Young Blue Dragon is even worse. Again not becuse it's unbeatable, but becuse either winning or loosing, the game session would last forever (even running the dragon can chase...).

I love the whole concept of solo monster, and I think some parties may be defeated from time to time, but I just felt like this creature is 10x harder tham the Young White Dragon for example (his defenses technically goes up 25+ versus 18+ of the white dragon).

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To FireLance: I agree with most of your points, you seem to have grasped my problem. I don't want to run a 6 hour encounter of 20 rounds. No matter the result , it will be boring.

Noone answered my question: can he recharge a power while sustaining it? I think he can. So the idea of waiting in cover seems very complicated. The dragon could fly from the darkness to the party position (landing in the middle maybe), put the darkness there, and hail opportunity attacks all over the PCs trying to leave the area. Am I right?

The fighter/paladin will effective loose his readied action, dismantling most of the DracoSuave tactics.

 

[LostSoul]

I have recently run a couple of fights against a black dragon. The first one was tough since there were only 4 PCs and the dragon had some help. He used his cloud to avoid attacks and put the acid down on the PCs when he could. This was more-or-less a TPK (one PC got a 20 on his death save and fled).

The second fight was different. The melee PCs had potions of acid resistance (4 were avaliable at the shop, rolled randomly on 1d6); they charged him in his cloud, pinned him into a corner, and pushed him out. He couldn't do much damage thanks to the acid, ended up dazed and slowed a few times (so unable to use his cloud of darkness), and had to spend an AP to get away from the death that flanked him. He died shortly after that.

If they hadn't had those potions it would have been closer. Probably more exciting, though the killing of the dragon was still a good fight.

Based on that I'd say the dragon is fine.