Slow combats

[LostSoul]

One of the things I am coming to dislike about 4E is that the combats take a long time.

I consider this different from "the grind", since most combats are interesting. But they still take a lot of time to resolve.

So why do you guys think combats take a long time?

I think it's because there are so many things for a player to consider when his turn comes up. Which power do I use? How will that work with other PC's powers? Do I spend an AP? It gets even more complex if I have to decide between move and minor actions.

I think that is a good thing; player choice is the most important thing in the game, in my opinion - but so much reduces the amount of exploration that you can deal with in a session. Which is too bad. (In my campaign we've been playing for 6 months, real time, and it's taken less than 2 weeks, game time.)

I'm working on a "quick combat" system that's kind of like Basic D&D in its resolution; I'm hoping that will be faster.

 

[Rechan]

I guess slow and fast is relative here. I've not played in any system where combat took less than 40 minutes, unless the fight is handwaved.

In my campaign we've been playing for 6 months, real time, and it's taken less than 2 weeks, game time.

What are you playing, a megadungeon?! Do you not exercise downtime? Do you use a lot of random encounters?

I feel that the amount of in-game time that passes is 100% the DM's adventure/campaign pacing.

 

[MichaelSomething]

If there's one thing that slows down combat, it's players not knowing their stuff. A player should know their total to hit bonus, the total damage the power does, and the effects the power has (at least for their at-wills).

Sometimes players can simply overcomplicate their decisions. They could be calculating complex plans when simply hitting the enemy will work.

 

[LostSoul]

Each fight seems to take... a long time. We can usually get through 3 decent fights a game without much else going on. (45 minutes, I guess, since we play for about 3 hours.)

What are you playing, a megadungeon?! Do you not exercise downtime? Do you use a lot of random encounters?

I feel that the amount of in-game time that passes is 100% the DM's adventure/campaign pacing.

Not really, but I want to give the players more strategic choices. I want them to pick and choose what they deal with, and deal with the consequences of whatever. That means that I ask them what they are doing every day. (Things are going on that they've set in motion, so it matters.)

 

[Turtlejay]

Are you playing published adventures? Homebrew? Converted material? I think that has a big effect on combat length. Offical Adventure planning guidelines have 1 combat set tough, most of the rest at or around party level, and 1 or 2 below it. Barring solos, combats at party level should not really take a whole lot of time.

I ran into this putting together encounters for the Homebrew stuff I was running. I was planning every combat as an epic, dynamic, shifting fight (whether they turned out that way is very debatable) and I don't think the game needs that. Big, meaningful fights against the Vampire buried in the catacombs should be long and epic. Skirmishes against the homeless brigands trying to shake you down for gold, not so much.

The couple of prepared adventures I have played in followed this somewhat. Easy mixes of hard and mundane encounters.

Above all though (and you nailed it), folks need to be prepared. You play the same character for 4 or more hours, hopefully on a regular basis, you should know what Thunderwave does and when you should use it. If players follow what is going on and keep unsolicited advice to a minimum, turns can go by pretty quickly. When one dude is getting pizza, one is on the phone, and two more are talking about Transformers or something, things bog down.

That's like anything though. Dominoes is like that. Card games are like that. The best you can do is create a game where people want to be involved and are engrossed for their own reasons. I never had a whole ton of luck with that, but I still had fun, so. . .whatever?

Jay

 

[Rechan]

Each fight seems to take... a long time. We can usually get through 3 decent fights a game without much else going on. (45 minutes, I guess, since we play for about 3 hours.)

Not really, but I want to give the players more strategic choices. I want them to pick and choose what they deal with, and deal with the consequences of whatever. That means that I ask them what they are doing every day. (Things are going on that they've set in motion, so it matters.)

I think I've isolated what is causing your game to go so slow.

If you know that you only have 3 hours to play, and you know that each fight takes 45 minutes, and you know this leaves you with little else to do... AND you know that, whatever choice the PCs make, the consequences are going to be immediate instead of spread out over time, thus slowing down in-game time with x number of immediate 45 minute fights...

 

[LostSoul]

I think I've isolated what is causing your game to go so slow.

Yeah.

I'd like it if some fights took about 5-15 minutes, and others took the whole 45.

I'd say, as DM, "Do you want to handle this with the full combat rules or the quick resolution?"

But as a more general question, do your combats take a while to resolve?

 

[mearls]

I'd like it if some fights took about 5-15 minutes, and others took the whole 45.

Try running fights with only one or two normal monsters, with the rest minions. Those fights are easier, but it seems like you might want that in a shorter fight.

Something as simple as putting one fewer monster than normal in the fight speeds things up, too, maybe even dropping two.

I've found that, sometimes, it helps to think of the monsters as a big pile of hit points. If you add up the total hit points in the fight, and compare it to 5 skirmishers of the party's level, you might get a sense of how much longer or shorter the fight could be.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

It seems 4e has a big swing for combat length. Like for my own campaigns combat so far has always been around the 20 minute range. I think part of it is I really like to ramp up a feel of tension and speed, a very much a "go, go, go!" deal so Power choices are decided faster, etc.

 

[LostSoul]

I guess that could work. I've had bad experiences with minions in the past - too much XP for too little risk - but they would run by much faster. (That was mostly my fault though, inexperience.)

The thing is, I want to maintain the challenge, but get along to other things as well.

Do you recommend dropping monsters and levelling up the others? That is, keeping the XP budget the same?