Slow combats

[Novem5er]

I've tried similar things with varying degrees of success.

I've tried adding a +level adjustment to all damage from both players and monsters. It made combat move a lot faster, but at the expense of players going through healing surges a lot more quickly.

I've also tried having maximum damage on all hits, with double max damage on critical hits + bonuses. (Essentially this eliminated the damage rolls). This also made combat move a lot faster, but also at the expense of players going through healing surges a lot more quickly.

The second case of max damage on all hits, made combat encounters significantly shorter to around 30 minutes or less for many encounters. But some players didn't like this as much. Some players actually liked rolling for damage.

Try out my suggestion and see how it works for you:

Monsters have 1/2 HP and do 1/2 level +1 bonus damage.

Thus, normally a level 6 Gnoll maurader has 84 HP and does d8 + 8 damage. Under this system, he'd have 42 HP and do d8 + 12 damage.

This system has several advantages:

• no change to players! Your players have to do NOTHING different and have no extra math to work with. They are playing 4e as written.
• Monsters last 1/2 as long, but do more damage with each hit (making up for the rounds they aren't alive).
• Players get excited when they can bloody an opponent with a good hit, and strikers can potentially 1 hit kill something with a Crit (yeah baby!).
• Players feel the hurt when they get double-tapped by a pair of monsters. Using the example Gnoll above... a character that gets hit by 2 in one round is taking 2d8 + 24 damage, plus bonus damage from monster abilities (gnoll pack hunting). That's a serious blow at level 6.

My experience is that players are taking as much damage per encounter as they were before (if not a little more, sometimes!), but the combats end when they FEEL over, instead of lasting another 4+ rounds.

 

[ggroy]

Try out my suggestion and see how it works for you:

Monsters have 1/2 HP and do 1/2 level +1 bonus damage.

Thus, normally a level 6 Gnoll maurader has 84 HP and does d8 + 8 damage. Under this system, he'd have 42 HP and do d8 + 12 damage.

This system has several advantages:

• no change to players! Your players have to do NOTHING different and have no extra math to work with. They are playing 4e as written.
• Monsters last 1/2 as long, but do more damage with each hit (making up for the rounds they aren't alive).
• Players get excited when they can bloody an opponent with a good hit, and strikers can potentially 1 hit kill something with a Crit (yeah baby!).
• Players feel the hurt when they get double-tapped by a pair of monsters. Using the example Gnoll above... a character that gets hit by 2 in one round is taking 2d8 + 24 damage, plus bonus damage from monster abilities (gnoll pack hunting). That's a serious blow at level 6.

My experience is that players are taking as much damage per encounter as they were before (if not a little more, sometimes!), but the combats end when they FEEL over, instead of lasting another 4+ rounds.

I've tried the 1/2 hit points thing for the monsters. That does significantly decrease the encounter time, and while still keeping the players excited without the encounter "dragging on". The monsters' powers which show up when they're blooded, also come in a lot sooner. I haven't tried the +level/2 damage adjustment simultaneous with this yet.

Does the +level/2 adjustment also apply to the encounter and daily powers of the monsters?

 

[drothgery]

[45 minute combats]

Wow. Really?

I've never timed things at our table, but we rarely have more than 2-3 combat encounters in a session (3-4 hours), whether it's D&D 3.x, d20 Modern, Star Wars Saga, or D&D 4e, and no matter who's DMing. And it's not because we're a bunch of deep immersion role-players, either.

 

[Aloïsius]

Does the +level/2 adjustment also apply to the encounter and daily powers of the monsters?

It won't be logical to not apply them. Rather than 6 or 8 rounds, encounters can be finished in 3 or 4 rounds with this system, so encounter and daily powers are really important for monsters.


Something to note : the length of combat depends a lot of the party composition. I play in an all-warlock party, and the combat are FAST, even without changing the rules : both the monsters and the players fall pretty fast.

On the other hand, I guess an all defender party would be a grind spawning beast.

 

[Novem5er]

I've tried the 1/2 hit points thing for the monsters. That does significantly decrease the encounter time, and while still keeping the players excited without the encounter "dragging on". The monsters' powers which show up when they're blooded, also come in a lot sooner. I haven't tried the +level/2 damage adjustment simultaneous with this yet.

Does the +level/2 adjustment also apply to the encounter and daily powers of the monsters?

I've been adding the 1/2 level bonus to damage on ALL monster attacks, but to be honest, I don't know if I've used many Daily monster powers, etc.

I've tried to play this system by ear. Sometimes I've added "1/2 level + 1" and sometimes it's just a straight "1/2 level". It's possible that a DM might not add any bonus damage to an already high-powered attack, for fear of really killing someone. But really, adding a flat bonus (1/2 level, ex) doesn't make super attacks that much more powerful... it's not like you're adding a percentage of damage dealt as a bonus.

Other people using a similar system might tweak it a bit. They might only reduce monster HP by 1/4 instead of by 1/2... or they might add a "+ level" to damage instead of 1/2 level. The key is to add damage to monster attacks to offset the turns they are missing b/c they died earlier than normal.

If a monster dies 4 rounds earlier than standard, then he's missing 3-4 attacks that he'd otherwise get. With roughly a 50% hit rate, that means the players are getting hit 1.5 - 2 fewer times. Thus, those "missing" hits need to be applied to actual hits so that players are still taking the appropriate amount of damage each combat.

The only downfall I've seen is that monsters with "cool" attacks that last round after round, don't seem to be as affective. Although, I did have one player turn to stone after a Cockatrice hit... even when the cockatrice only lived 2 rounds

 

[Skallgrim]

I'm having a problem with the long combats too. Fortunately, they aren't "the grind", but rather, almost the opposite. We are averaging about 2 combats in a 4.5 hour session. That's not as bad as it sounds, because before and between those two combats are usually two good, fun, interesting exploration or interaction "sessions" (and the interaction sometimes bleeds over into the combats a bit).

However, our fights easily encompass an hour or more each fight (even "at level" fights). The first few rounds seem to go really, really slowly, but the final few rounds wrap up really, really fast. I know that the monsters are few and far between in those final rounds, and low on hit points, but it really seems to be more than that.

I don't know if it the fact that, by level 11, the players all have 3 Daily Powers and 4 Encounter powers (plus items, etc). It seems like the first few rounds are everybody poring over their sheets and contemplating their options and hemming and hawing.

I'm not sure, but I think it is a problem of "Awesomeness". It seems like each of my players wants each turn to be awesome, and sees their at-wills as kind of lame and boring. It's like they are trying anything they can do to pop out an incredible daily or encounter power each turn. Then, when those are gone, finally they'll just move around, flank, and whack stuff.

It's not like their Encounter and Daily Powers are so incredibly powerful, and their At-Wills are so lame and boring. I wish I could just get them to look at the board, look at the monsters, talk among themselves, and pick a good action for that turn. It's not rocket science.

I guess I'm not frustrated with the delay, but frustrated in the results of the delay. If we were going slow, but people busted out an incredible combo afterward, it might be OK. Instead, we wait and wait for someone's turn, and eventually, they go, "I'll just Twin Strike this guy.". WTF were we waiting for?

 

[ggroy]

I've been adding the 1/2 level bonus to damage on ALL monster attacks, but to be honest, I don't know if I've used many Daily monster powers, etc.

I usually play the monsters to use their daily and encounter powers (if they have any), relatively early on in the encounter. It gives the players a big shock at first.

I'll have to see whether monsters launching dailies and encounter powers would be too powerful with the +level/2 modifier, especially with area attacks or attacks which allow half-damage on misses.

 

[Mercule]

Honestly, I've been amazed at how much more quickly 4e combat runs than 3e. We'll see whether I still have that opinion when the groups hits Paragon tier, but life's good, right now.

Of course, I think 90% of what slowed down my 3e game was complicated effects -- and having the newbie play the wizard and a non-detail-oriented player run the druid. I didn't think I was going to like the short power descriptions, but they do run so much faster without losing much flavor (I could handle having more complex rituals, though). Just simplifying stuff has sped up combat incredibly for my group.

I've also found visual cues to be beneficial, whether that's pipecleaners on minis, poker chips for conditions, or something else. Find something that works. On that note, photocopy the conditions page of the PHB, if you don't have a DM screen.

Something else that helps more than I thought it would is to let the players know not just who's up now, but who's next: "Okay, Jim, it's your turn. Sally's next. What do you do, Jim?" And, clarify when someone is done: "Jim, you've used a minor and standard action. Do you have a move or are you done?"

Finally, the first thing I changed. Accept that it's okay for monsters to run (or even drop before they're time). Yes, healing resources are still limited, but not as finely as they were in prior editions. Those five extra hit points the orc is going to do before it dies ain't gonna matter when you're spending surges. It certainly isn't gonna matter as much as the 10-15 minutes it could take to cycle through everyone but the fighter holding their actions untill the turd dies. As a DM, you know when the fight is done. Just let it be done.

The first couple fights we had in 4e ran 90+ minutes. We're down to 45 minutes for boss fights and 30 minutes, max for others. I don't know that I want combat to take less than 20-30 minutes, anyway, so that's good for me. I plan to continue to streamline things, though. As I said, Paragon tier is coming. Plus, having the ability to tinker with timing is never a bad thing.

 

[Jack99]

Re: the adjustment of damage when changing the hit points. Obviously, it would be more precise to up the average damage of the monster's attacks by the same amount (in %) that you decrease it's hit points. But I wonder how close the +½ level damage is to that number.

Anyone take a look at that?

 

[Elric]

I'm surprised nobody has said this yet:

Monsters have too much HP.

There. It needed to be said. It literally takes too long for monsters to die (especially brutes). Soldiers have lower HP, but they have higher defenses, which means they don't get hit as often, and thus the fights last longer.

Let me clarify: I believe that 4e as written is just fine. If you have a bunch of tactical players who really memorize their powers, think ahead, and don't get distracted at the table... then I think combat is awesome.

For my group (and I wager a lot of groups), it's just too much and it takes too long. My group of mixed-experienced players (some newbs, some vets), a normal combat was easily taking us 60-90 minutes. Much of this was player delay (cross talk + unfamiliar powers), but much of it was the fact that a level 6 Gnoll has 84 HP!

For that last 4 sessions, we've changed the rules:

Monsters have 1/2 HP, but they do bonus damage equal to 1/2 their level (sometimes +1).

So a level 6 Gnoll brute now has 42 HP and does 1d8 + 11 damage on a hit.

If you are giving monsters 1/2 of their normal hit points, it would make sense for monsters to do around twice their normal damage. This is assuming that monsters are already balanced in terms of damage per encounter, encounter length in round is proportional to monster HP, and the problem is that it takes too long to run through that encounter.

A few other issues: One reason why monsters should get less than twice normal damage is that higher damage relative to hit points gives monsters more of a shot at winning a fight due to a series of rolls going their way. A reason why monsters should get more than twice normal damage is that PC power drops off over the course of a combat as they use up encounter powers and daily powers and switch to at-wills. So if the fight is shorter, PCs are relatively stronger than they used to be.

Similarly, changing monsters to have more damage and lower HP really encourages PCs who can "nova", expending resources to deal a lot of damage quickly. If monster HP goes down and monster damage goes up, a high nova party might breeze through encounters.

The DMG's normal damage expression guideline is approximately Damage= 6 + 0.6*level. This suggests that monster should get a significant bonus to damage from halving their hit points (if you're going to use the same number of monsters). Something like 5 + 0.5*level for most monsters, and even more for Brutes/the high damage attacks of Lurkers.