Twin Strike question

[sunrisekid]

I have a RAW question concerning the Ranger's Twin Strike ability which I have not yet seen articulated elsewhere. A sanity check really, for having spent too much time thinking about this

Every instance of the question I've read regarding this power assumes that the player rolls twice to determine hits. It's intuitive. However, the power does not explicitly state that the player roll twice, unlike other powers which do (eg, Split the Tree).

The standard game mechanic is to roll a d20 once for an attack, pending exceptions (eg bursts). There is no statement in Twin Strike indicating an exception to the standard mechanic, ergo can it be read that with this power the player only rolls once and applies the value as necessary (ie, to one or two targets)?

The fluff text implies but, well, full aside what exactly are the dictated mechanics? The mechanics state, "two attacks", which follows from the fluff text and title especially with regards to two different melee weapons.

What is gained/lost by this? Am I going insane? Opinions have been stated that the power, interpreted as two attacks, is quite powerful especially at higher levels with enhancements and what not. Does a single die-roll keep the power within reasonable use?

 

[Mad Hamish]

a) I think you do roll twice but can't put my finger on the exact rule reference
b) the drawback of a single attack roll would be that it would reduce the chance of applying quarry damage. Normally if you have a 50% chance of hitting your target as a ranger with Twin Strike you have 75% chance of getting at least 1 hit which gives you a 75% chance of doing quarry damage

With your suggested change you get a 50% chance of hitting twice and a 50% chance of missing twice resulting in the same damage contribution from everything but quarry damage.
So you'd be cutting average damage down a very little.

 

[DracoSuave]

For every power that attacks multiple targets you roll for each separate target.

For ranged and melee powers, you also roll separate damage for each target. For area and close attacks, you roll damage once and apply it to all targets.

(see Attack Types, p270-1)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, I don't know who would be arguing that there could only be one attack roll. Every type of attack rolls once per target to-hit, even area type attacks. In any case the power specifies 2 attacks, and the attack procedure on PHB 269 specifies a to-hit roll for each one. Other similar powers like Rain of Blows clearly require multiple rolls and are structured in the same way.

In any case Twin Strike can attack 2 targets, and nowhere in 4e does a single to-hit roll ever apply to more than one target. More than that WotC CS rulings state that you can make one attack with TS, determine the result, and then decide where to target the second attack, which would make no sense if the power used one attack roll.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

I have a RAW question concerning the Ranger's Twin Strike ability which I have not yet seen articulated elsewhere. A sanity check really, for having spent too much time thinking about this

Every instance of the question I've read regarding this power assumes that the player rolls twice to determine hits. It's intuitive. However, the power does not explicitly state that the player roll twice, unlike other powers which do (eg, Split the Tree).

The standard game mechanic is to roll a d20 once for an attack, pending exceptions (eg bursts). There is no statement in Twin Strike indicating an exception to the standard mechanic, ergo can it be read that with this power the player only rolls once and applies the value as necessary (ie, to one or two targets)?

The fluff text implies but, well, full aside what exactly are the dictated mechanics? The mechanics state, "two attacks", which follows from the fluff text and title especially with regards to two different melee weapons.

What is gained/lost by this? Am I going insane? Opinions have been stated that the power, interpreted as two attacks, is quite powerful especially at higher levels with enhancements and what not. Does a single die-roll keep the power within reasonable use?

You just answered yourself.

 

[Infiniti2000]

One other thing, don't confuse it with Split the Tree. Although you roll twice in Split the Tree, you don't roll separately for each target. You just take the single best roll and use it for both targets. So, Split the Tree is a special case.

 

[Samir]

Every melee/ranged power that has multiple attacks (i.e., has "two attacks" "three attacks" etc. in the Attack: line) has a separate attack roll and damage roll for each attack.

A melee attack against multiple enemies consists of separate attacks, each with its own attack roll and damage roll.
...
A ranged attack against multiple enemies consists of separate attacks, each ith its own attack roll and damage roll.

This includes multiple attacks against the same target.

 

[sunrisekid]

Great, thank you for spelling this out for me. I understand that area attacks all require multiple attack rolls, so, yes, it is logical that Twin Strike involves two attack rolls.

Thank you also for clarifying that the player is allowed to make a choice after the first roll where to direct the second roll.

cheers

 

[DracoSuave]

Thank you also for clarifying that the player is allowed to make a choice after the first roll where to direct the second roll.

cheers

No one said that.

You follow all lines in the power in order. (PHB2, end rules clarifications, subject to individual exceptions)

Targets: occurs before Attack: so you declare all your targets before you start your attacks.

Powers that do otherwise use the template (simplified)

Target: One Creature
Attack: Blah vs Blah
Hit: xDy + z foo damage.
Effect: Make a secondary attack against the target or another creature in range.
  Secondary Target: One Creature
  Secondary Attack: Blah vs Blah
  Hit: xDy + z foo Damage.

(had to code it to show indentation)

 

[Samir]

No one said that.

You follow all lines in the power in order. (PHB2, end rules clarifications, subject to individual exceptions)

Targets: occurs before Attack: so you declare all your targets before you start your attacks.

Powers that do otherwise use the template (simplified)

Target: One Creature
Attack: Blah vs Blah
Hit: xDy + z foo damage.
Effect: Make a secondary attack against the target or another creature in range.
  Secondary Target: One Creature
  Secondary Attack: Blah vs Blah
  Hit: xDy + z foo Damage.

(had to code it to show indentation)

This template is almost always for attacks where the second attack depends on the first attack hitting.

There was a lot of debate on gleemax about this, and I don't think it's nearly that cut-and-dry. A good case can easily be made for treating the attacks as sequential, allowing you to resolve the first attack before picking the target for the second.