Stealth and Shadow Walk

[DracoSuave]

Or you move more than 2 squares into total concealment, thus allowing you to Stealth. Shadow Walk is on, so when you leave total concealment, you still -have- concealment. You make a new stealth check for moving more than 2 squares the -next- turn, but you still have stealth provided you succeed at that check.

You can do this indefinately until you make an attack, at which point the attack breaks your Stealth regardless of your concealment. Then you require total concealment again to restart this chain of events.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Yeah, the warlock loses his shadow walk concealment at the start of his turn. Therefore at the point where he takes any action (like starting to move), he's not concealed through shadow walk, and therefore would become unhidden.

I don't think there's any combination of rogue stealth at-wills that can prevent that: chameleon only applies when it's NOT your turn, and the others require you to be hidden OR concealed to start them.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yeah, the warlock loses his shadow walk concealment at the start of his turn. .

No, that's Eyebite.

Shadow Walk is until the end of your next turn.

 

[shadowoflameth]

No, that's Eyebite.

Shadow Walk is until the end of your next turn.

Quite correct. But shadow walk does not grant 'total concealment' as does invisibility (combat advantage, -5 to hit, others cannot see you by normal means. Shadow walk is 'concealment' which is enough to hide from while you have it. It also makes you harder to hit (-2). Neither makes you undetectable. If you shadow walk, when you have moved (3) squares, you begin to be concealed, and can escape notice and hide (for which you will need cover, or concealment. If the shadow walk remains your only concealment, at the end of your next it goes away, and you will no longer be hidden.

Even with 'total concealment' and adjacent foe can still detect your square location and try to hit you (against the -5 penalty if it's a melee or ranged attack.

 

[DracoSuave]

Quite correct. But shadow walk does not grant 'total concealment' as does invisibility (combat advantage, -5 to hit, others cannot see you by normal means. Shadow walk is 'concealment' which is enough to hide from while you have it. It also makes you harder to hit (-2). Neither makes you undetectable. If you shadow walk, when you have moved (3) squares, you begin to be concealed, and can escape notice and hide (for which you will need cover, or concealment. If the shadow walk remains your only concealment, at the end of your next it goes away, and you will no longer be hidden.

Even with 'total concealment' and adjacent foe can still detect your square location and try to hit you (against the -5 penalty if it's a melee or ranged attack.

No arguments there. Which is why you must enter Total Concealment under Shadow Walk for it to work. But, if you can get Shadow Walk online while Total Concealed, you -can- use Shadow Walk to remain hidden for as long as you keep moving, because its duration resets after you've moved.

You just have to keep remaking Stealth Rolls every time you move.

 

[Stalker0]

The Stealth errata requires

1) Total Concealment to BECOME hidden.
2) Concealment to REMAIN hidden.

So if a warlock is willing to move slow enough, he can start out in complete darkness, and mosey on out in the middle of an open street. As long as his stealth beats people passive perception he is undetected.

If a warlock wants to scout out a room, I would rule the same way.

However, in the middle of combat, I would argue monsters can make active perception checks, and might see him that way.

 

[Saeviomagy]

No arguments there. Which is why you must enter Total Concealment under Shadow Walk for it to work. But, if you can get Shadow Walk online while Total Concealed, you -can- use Shadow Walk to remain hidden for as long as you keep moving, because its duration resets after you've moved.

You just have to keep remaking Stealth Rolls every time you move.

Whoops, you're totally right. Because the concealment overlaps itself, you're concealed the entire time, and therefore never need to stop stealthing unless you stop moving or attack.

 

[DracoSuave]

However, in the middle of combat, I would argue monsters can make active perception checks, and might see him that way.

I agree with this to an extent.

Of course, if the monsters have no reason to believe there is something amiss, they might spend their minor action doing something else.

And even then, if the Warlock just wants to hide-in-plain-sight for a fight and not actively contribute beyond going 'Nothing to see here, move along' it's means the same as if he was taken out of the fight the whole time, which is about as strict a penalty one can inflict short of character death.

 

[kugelkj]

So, assuming he hides around the corner or in any total concealment/superior cover, a Warlock may scout out a room at full stride, making Stealth checks at the end of every move action, and need not find any environmental cover/concealment. In this context, I'm not referring to combat. The 'scout' would return to rest of PC's before initiating combat. Though I'm thinking it would be pretty cool in the Warlock found a shady spot to hide while the other PC's initiate combat and then pop out behind enemy lines. Probably better for the infernal (hp buffer) or feylocks (lots of teleport) out there.

But also up for discussion is why a non-Warlock can't do this same thing by not moving at full speed. Essentially creeping (move 2) around and not having to make new stealth checks at all: If I hide around the corner, I'm invisible (with total concealment) to all those enemies who have lower Pas. Perc. than my stealth check. If I don't a) move more than 2, b) speak above a whisper, c) attack... I can maintain the sneak (because I have total concealment from being invisible... and silent!).

To be certain... I think I am clear on how Stealth was intended to work, but the errata rules don't help resolve the above mentioned issue. I'm just playing devils advocate for a player who made this same argument to me, and then was surly when I tried to houserule with a skill challenge (which he never took advantage of).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, the whole circular "your hidden because your hidden" thing is exactly as you say, a loophole. Or more an artifact of the way they used their terminology a bit sloppily. The intent is clear and even in LFR you wouldn't get away with wandering in plain sight hidden just because of that.

As for the whole warlock thing, yes, warlocks CAN be pretty stealthy, but note a few issues they have. 1) You have to move 3 squares to remain concealed and thus you will have to roll a new stealth roll each turn and with the -5 applied for moving more than 2 squares. 2) Warlocks really have no use for DEX aside from a way to be sneaky and they are already pretty stretched on ability scores so making a truly sneaky warlock without the aid of some additional magic really isn't a very viable build. There are definitely some items that will do the trick for you though.

Overall shadow walk is nice, and it does give you SOME ability to stealth around, more than what any other non-rogue has, but it still doesn't put you in the same league with a dexy rogue packing the level 2 and level 6 stealthing utility powers. I mean, a level 10 rogue can really literally walk down a street in plain sight and never need to roll more than the initial stealth roll.