Why Changes were made in 4e

[Celebrim]

ER, Celebrim, I disagree strongly...

4e's rules are perhaps the WORST set of D&D rules EVER you want to be translated to real time.

Ok. Explain it to me.

All those "push and Slide powers"

Are absolutely perfect for real time play. One thing that traditional D&D lacks is alot of movement based/movement hindering tactics, which is precisely what you need when you start adding freeform movement and twitch to the mix. Traditional D&D combat relied on narration more than precise positioning and had elements that just didn't translate well (like full attacks) when you tried to make them anything but abstract. You can see this in the way games like NWN's work.

Most movement powers can be implemented as direct pushes and pulls and are really easy to do, and the rest basically add a single mouse click on activation to 'point' where you want to go. It's not like there aren't existing models of games games of this sort with pushes and pulls.

Plus you are missing things like like the fact that hindering abilities are very short term in 4e. Getting 'frozen out' of play in a twitchy computer game sucks even worse than it does in PnP.

plus a higher use of out of turn abilities like Immediate reactions....

Are actually far far easier to implement in a computer game than they are to track at a table. Setting up triggers and events in a computer game is trivial, and the computer doesn't forget. I mean, this is basically how games work - some event triggers some animated response.

 

[Imban]

And NWN really had to rework the skills and feats of D&D 3.0 to make them fit their Aurora Engine (Parry skill anyone?).

I have literally no idea why Parry needed to be in NWN, except that I guess they thought it would be fun. It's not like Discipline, which was added to make the "combat maneuvers" (well, Knockdown ) a little more obvious in how they worked.

 

[Shemeska]

The point is that we have a new generation of designers trying to make D&D their own...is that part of an evil corporate vision? I don't think so at all, but I also understand why it's left some of the old guard feeling left behind.

How different are they though, generation-wise, from the core 3e design crew? It doesn't strike me so much as a new generation with new ideas, but rather just a new crew with their own ideas for the game once the major 3e figures were no longer with WotC. Age-wise as far as I can guess, I figure most of the 4e design team started the game back in 1e, which doesn't make me assume it's a new generation moving in, just a new group of guys wanting to put their spin on the game now.

 

[LostSoul]

4e makes magic users fundamentally like every other class.

Mechanically, yes.

In the game world? I guess it's up to your group, but I'd say that in my campaign they are fundamentally different.

 

[LostSoul]

Are actually far far easier to implement in a computer game than they are to track at a table. Setting up triggers and events in a computer game is trivial, and the computer doesn't forget. I mean, this is basically how games work - some event triggers some animated response.

A PC gets one Immediate Action per round. I assume in real time that means every few seconds or so. NPC1 triggers an Immediate Reaction/Interrupt. I don't care about using it at that point; I want to save it for later. (Maybe it's an Encounter Power, like Shield; I don't want to use it to block the 4 points of damage from the minion, I want to use it in case the Elite Brute hits with a massive attack dealing 16 damage and dazing me.)

How do I decide to hold on to my Immediate Action in real time?

I'm sure there are ways, but as I understand it that's the difficulty.

 

[Ariosto]

He had a pop-up spell book?

Actually, Raise Read is a thrifty and charitable clerical spell that lets a scroll be re-used by readers of braille!

Monsters & Treasure of course taught not to trust Nixies (In Liar 100%), and offered swords with the power to Detect Meal & What Kind. The 1st ed. Players Handbook put the Grand Master of Flowers in new context by revealing the importance of "monastic aesthetics ..."!

Oh the television man is crazy
Saying we're juvenile delinquent wrecks
Oh man I need TV when I've got
TYPO Rex

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Oh the television man is crazy
Saying we're juvenile delinquent wrecks
Oh man I need TV when I've got
TYPO Rex

Oh...
All the young Druids (hey dudes)
Carry the gnus (where are ya)
Boogaloo Druids (stand up come on)
Carry the gnus

 

[Ariosto]

But seriously, on the whole "out of spells, so call it a day" thing:

I never encountered it until a few years ago when I saw it mentioned online. That the people with whom I played 3e were apparently not into an Internet D&D scene apart from one fellow -- and he strictly concerned with the Neverwinter Nights program -- might have something to do with that.

On the other hand, I'm sure it's not a new thing. One of the guys in my current group who never played anything but 1e has a touch of that, and the 2e-centric fellow who is DM lately "house rules" away a lot of resource management. (As the player of our only m-u, I've got issues with what this DM lavishly giveth as well as with what he taketh away in too-arbitrary fashion, but that's a whole can of worms.)

One thing I think worth noting is the shift to assuming a string of fights. The original "dungeon game" fundamentals seem in some neighborhoods to be a long time lost. For all that I dig Tunnels & Trolls, I think that in some of this respect it was 30 years ahead of its time; published T&T dungeons (mostly solitaire scenarios) have always tended to remarkably "packed" and pretty linear gauntlets.

Anyway, we still manage to avoid the "Ten Minute Adventuring Day" despite the strong reservations of the one other guy who knows from 3e and 4e (who happens to be playing our cleric).

My m-u is lucky to have survived some recklessness, but I don't recall so much frustration (which is really not so much) back in the day when the scenarios in my experience were not so combat-oriented as this latest one. It's really the DM's heavy handed determination to spoil stratagems that might obviate slugging matches that irks me -- and not so much that I feel "useless".

It cracks me up that in the last session we were joined by an elfin thief who got in not one back-stab. In melees, she mostly just hung back as a peanut gallery and tossed a few daggers into the fray.

There's still (as we're playing with the old TSR rules) notable variety even in very combat-centric sessions. "Tactics" as I understand the term come up in very varied ways.

Basically, we get really cautious when we're back down to the first-level state of probably getting killed if another round goes against us.

 

[LostSoul]

Ariosto, how do you avoid the "15-minute adventuring day" when smart play would seem to suggest that resting to restore spells is the best course of action?

(I can easily see reasons for it, but I'm just wondering what your experience has been.)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Ariosto, how do you avoid the "15-minute adventuring day" when smart play would seem to suggest that resting to restore spells is the best course of action?

Ariosto isn't my name, but I did post how it goes in our campaigns it a little upthread: since we generally have DMs who don't let you stop just because you're "low on ammo" or dinged up a tad (myself included), we use a lot of tactical fighting & economical spell use (nova only when forced to!).

See:

The Wiz wasn't an item creator- he went straight Metamagic. Ditto the main divine casters.

We didn't have any Cure wands or scrolls. A couple of potions per PC, but that was it.

1) We fight tactically- using cover, obstructions & bottlenecks to limit the number of attackers that can actually get to the party. Several members of the party have reach weapons so they can attack from the 2nd rank. Even mundane items get used- alchemical grenades, caltrops, marbles, etc- in order to control where foes stand.

<snip>
Sometimes, if there is no real ranged threat, the spell-hoarding mage will visibly lob a big spell to open a combat (announcing his presence), then retreat to a "cover" position, knocking the bejuanas out of anyone who travels into his line of fire.
<snip>
One death was avoided because my PC (and ONLY my PC) actually had levels in Swimming, and could save the party's Rogue from drowning after he got paralyzed by a ___________.

Even though that prompted a retreat, the party still had 2 subsequent combats on the way out.