How are melee characters expected to deal with flying creatures?

[keterys]

By epic it's much easier, absolutely. The creatures I mentioned are both heroic and could easily cause horrendous problems to a group of level 4-9 characters.

Now, as a DM I wouldn't throw what I'd consider a stupid flying encounter* at a party, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't be written in a module or that some DMs wouldn't 'play a creature tactically' and have it just keep its distance until there was a compelling reason to get closer.

And for some of these creatures, that compelling reason might be that it killed off, say, the first two PCs it picked on and the other 3 got away. Good enough.

* And am, for example, trying to put together a combination skill challenge / phased dragon fight for one part of my campaign where the dragon does try to leverage its flight and forces the PCs to land it with local terrain / siege weaponry / reinforcements.

 

[Ryujin]

What a great point. I like the idea of a Fighter picking up a rock, throwing it at the flying beast and saying, "Here, fight me!"

Our fighter keeps a pocket-full of coppers, for just this purpose. Even if he doesn't get the thing to fight him, he's still giving it that -2 penalty.

 

[fba827]

get the controller (or other controller-esque) type allies to ground the creature.

(hey, controllers have to done something good for the party, right? )

 

[keterys]

Well, a young blue dragon is level 6. So let's say it's facing level 4 characters... other than being a dreadfully boring fight, what abilities can these level 4 characters use on the dragon to prevent it from using lightning burst on the group every round, potentially while ducking out of range every other round if there's somehow any use in doing so (like letting a mark fade).

Though technically it can probably just do the lightning bursts from 22 squares away since they're burst 2 and it would still hit the ground. Yeah, that'd be funny for narrowing out javelins and magic missile too.

But, what controller powers are range 20 and knock prone or stun at level 4? Phantom Chasm is one of the few I can think of, and it does require hitting - thankfully the dragon's low defense, so a good 30%-35% chance. If the wizard prepared that daily.

 

[ExploderWizard]

But, what controller powers are range 20 and knock prone or stun at level 4? Phantom Chasm is one of the few I can think of, and it does require hitting - thankfully the dragon's low defense, so a good 30%-35% chance. If the wizard prepared that daily.

Why the assumption that the PC's have to engage the dragon while at the greatest disadvantage? Maneuver it to a place where its flight advantage is minimized. Is having to fight the thing without a plan the requirement here?

 

[Obryn]

This.

The first melee at-will for an Avenger is golden.

The second? Is a power not measurably better than a charge, and not giving you substantial options beyond "charge or mba or primary at-will". Whereas slotting a ranged attack gives you -substantial- choices over what you started with.

Yep. I let one of my players re-train one of his At-Wills after the first session trying out the new class.

I know that the OoE is a tempting and delectable nugget, ripe for the picking, but Avengers have a lot of great powers - and some of the best aren't melee weapon ones. I understand wanting to get the most out of OoE, but if an Avenger distributes out his powers, he'll get the most out of his character.

-O

 

[keterys]

Why the assumption that the PC's have to engage the dragon while at the greatest disadvantage? Maneuver it to a place where its flight advantage is minimized. Is having to fight the thing without a plan the requirement here?

Why the assumption that they have a choice? If a blue dragon decides to attack a party on the road or in the wilderness it can easily take at least 5 minutes to get into a cave or similar form of absolute cover.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yeah, i hink the don´t fight a dragon in the open sounds like the best and desired tactic. If PC´s could bring down a dragon easily when he is in his favourite terrain, something is wrong.

Did such a question came up in a 3.5 discussion? I ´hope not, because there were not so many things a fighter could do to bring the dragon down... even when he readies an action

In the worst case, the fighter could ready a grab and also do his opportunity attack in 4e to convince the dragon to stay down if it ever coes into melee range.

in 3.5 you could however use a bow which did meaningfull damage if you hit... but thats not to be taken for granted against a dragon...
especially if you are hyperotimized...

 

[keterys]

And yet, by conceding that the party _can't_ deal with it, responses that basically act like the OP's concerns are trivial or meaningless or suggest that parties stuck in such circumstances are brainless are, well, not very useful responses.

I wouldn't throw an encounter at the party that was both supremely boring and potentially unwinnable (like a dragon who could do damage to them while they had no recourse except to run to something several minutes away)... but some DMs would just consider it a good challenge, or note that's what the random encounter table threw against the party, or just flat out not realize how bad things could be.

So it's a valid conversation to have. And it doesn't have to be just dragons. I was only giving examples of low level creatures that have flight and range 20 significant damage, since range 20 is outside of the range of a massive percentage of magic abilities.

 

[Garthanos]

and some of the best aren't melee weapon ones.
-O

Names please claim so far un backed by actual data...
ranges of 10 and under may receive summary dismissal.
Feel free to compare these ranged powers to other strikers please....

picture the above with robot voice firmly planted in cheek.