How are melee characters expected to deal with flying creatures?

[DracoSuave]

I don't know. I can remember at least a few times in 2E and 3E where a Tenser's Disk was used to get a helpless PC out of danger in combat, or for other ways to move some heavy objects quickly in combat.

But, it's -design- is a carry stuff spell. It still has uses outside that perview. Yes, it had -other- uses in previous editions as well. But that's not an argument to making it instant cast. It's -purpose- is not made better by doing so, merely stuff that -isn't- it's purpose. Most of that other stuff can be resolved by 'Dude, go pick that guy up' in combat. The functionality is not required.

Ooh. Good argument. Casting a Tenser's Disk several hundred GP ritual scroll to gain a few more feet for a Climb in combat is WAY unbalanced. BAN IT!!!

10 gold pieces. No one uses ritual scrolls for level 1 rituals if there's a ritual caster in the group.

I'm thinking a piece of furniture or other object will do just as well or better. And those are free. Or are your dungeons totally devoid of objects?

Good point. Another reason Tenser's doesn't need to be instant.

And if none of the PCs have Thievery? Is the DM just supposed to unlock all the doors in the dungeon?

Then you fulfill that function by mastering the Knock ritual.

If the party does have Thievery, they won't often use a component costing Knock ritual, will they?

Nope, they probably don't have to.

Not the point. The point is to allow non-combat utility spells in combat so that players can do something other than:

"I swing, I hit, I swing, I miss"

which the vast majority of combat power are.

The few utility powers in the core game system are mostly combat oriented as well. Shield, Cure Light Wounds, Bless. The list goes on and on. Sure, there are a few movement powers, but even many of those are combat oriented and would rarely be used outside of combat. And, there might be a slim handful of utility powers that are not combat oriented, but meh.

So... um... rituals need to be made instant because you don't feel there's enough out of combat utility powers?

So. There's not enough -out of combat- utility powers, so the way to fix this is to make -rituals usable in combat-.

This makes no sense.

The entire game except for skill challenges is combat oriented. If a player wants to do some miscellaneous task in combat, they are for the most part, handcuffed to the skill set which means that the player who wants to do this, only has a small number of options that can be reasonably successful because most PCs have only a handful of trained skills.

Except, of course, for the parts you'd use rituals for. Look at every ritual in the game. Look at the problem that ritual solves.

Non-combat situations that exist to be solved.

Sorry you don't need an elaborate combat system for non-combat stuff like 'There's a door in front of you.'

Want to find a secret door that you are confident is there in combat in order to have a choke point? Fine. Perception. Missed the roll? What can you do now to find it? Probably nothing.

Perception is a minor action. You might not have a lot to spare, but it's hardly a do-or-die situation. And you failed a roll in combat. Big deal.

If one had the Detect Secret Door 1 standard action ritual scroll, they'd have a good chance of finding it. And, at a GP cost.

But why? It's a minor action to Perception. So...

Take a standard action and spend some gold to make a roll to find something, or, take a minor action, no gold, make a roll to find something.

To be fair, you'd have to remove the die roll...

...and then you've reduced the non-attack-roll side of combat to 'spend gp and solve problem.'

This is not an improvement.

There are hundreds of examples where a ritual scroll could help IF and only if a player wants to spend gold in order to have this level of versatility.

There are hundreds of examples where lots of things would help the players IF they were allowed access to it. I'm -certain- it'd be quite helpful if I had access to other class's powers without having to spend feats or anything.

That doesn't make it good for the game.

It isn't free.

And, 10 minutes is actually a HUGE amount of time in combat.

It's almost as if rituals aren't meant for combat purposes. You can think of thousands of uses for them in combat, and so can I. Spend gold, end combat with a win isn't what I want to see standard actions being spent on, even with a healing surge.

Players probably wouldn't. It's an option.

If the ritual were strong enough, you bet your ASS they would.

You haven't written one thing that indicates that this is really a bad idea.

Um, experience playing with wizards in 3+ previous editions? Having a spell that obsoletes -you- is NOT good for the game, and is NOT fun for the players.

This is an idea that allows a Ritual Caster to have fun.

Corrected that for you. Other players might not agree.

Obviously, players will not use Knock right away (too costly) if Thievery is available. Obviously, players will not use Knock on every single locked door if Thievery is unavailable (they'll run out of ritual scrolls and spend a lot of money).

Making Knock instant doesn't make it any better for the game. In combat, skills are the way to get around things. Absense of that skill means you find another way. Once combat is over, then you have your rituals to handle the non-urgent stuff.

I'm sorry if ten minutes is a long time to you, but rituals are not designed for combat, never were, and never will be. This is -by design.-

So explain the difference between Magical and Alchemical potions and other inexpensive miscellaneous spells ritual scrolls.

Scale.

How is one SO acceptable and the other SO terrible?

I think thou dost protest too much.

Magic Circle doesn't show up in consumable form for a -reason.-

Here's how -not- having rituals cast during combat enhances gameplay.

Without a ritual:
'That wall between us and the lichlord of Mungkatrapz, he's launching flaming bursts at us from behind it, yes? And it's 15 feet high?'
'Yes, and yes.'
'Crap. Um... okay, we're surrounded by Mungkazombies, so.. I'm going to use an acrobatic stunt to leap off one, into the air, and reach for the top of the wall. I know they'll get opportunity attacks on me, but if I can get onto the wall, I can then lower rope down to the rest of you!'
'That sounds awesome. Let's roll some dice.'

With a ritual:
'That wall between us and the lichlord of Mungkatrapz, he's launching flaming bursts at us from behind it, yes? And it's 15 feet high?'
'Yes, and yes.'
'I Passwall.'
'How cinematic. Roll some dice.'

 

[KarinsDad]

Magic Circle doesn't show up in consumable form for a -reason.-

Magic Circle isn't affected by the house rule.

It has a casting time of one hour. For a -reason.-


Your arguments have nothing to do with fun or actual game imbalance.

Your arguments really boil down to "But, that's not how the designers designed 4E".

You play the game the way you want to have fun. I'll play it my way.

I prefer miscellaneous minor non-combat options in combat for a cost, not much different than potions. You prefer to be limited via the core rules.

Each is ok dude. Honest.


If I was talking Magic Circle or Raise Dead or Raise Land, then I could see a balance issue. I'm not. I'm talking Water Breathing. I'm talking allowing the rituals that could be cast anyway out of combat with two short rests to be cast in combat instead.


With my solution, a Rogue could, heaven forbid, not take the Thievery skill at all and use his Magic Ritual feat to handle some of that.

OH NO. The world is going to end if a player wants to play a Rogue without the Thievery skill.

My solution gives balanced options for players. That equals fun in my book.

 

[DracoSuave]

Your arguments have nothing to do with fun or actual game imbalance.

You missed the part where I flat out said it's not fun for non-ritual casters to be rendered obsolete by ritual casting.

That covers -both- those right there.

OH NO. The world is going to end if a player wants to play a Rogue without the Thievery skill.

My solution gives balanced options for players. That equals fun in my book.

The problem is that it -isn't- balanced. Ritual casting isn't something that gets more fun or better when more people have it. You stick it on the ritual caster, and you go.

So, yes, all this is more fun for the ritual caster, but a lot of it can come at a direct challenge to the roles and abilities of other characters. Instant cast is -exactly- the sort of thing that you don't want. Why bother with stunts and such when you can simply ritual yourself past the obstacle?

It's -only- more fun for -one- player, but it really sucks a -lot- of the fun out of the game for the rest. Outside combat, it's not -so- bad because of the non-turn-based nature of the game, the -players- can collaborate a little better, and even then, ten minutes is -hardly- a long time. Really. it isn't.

 

[keterys]

Can you guys stop arguing using Knock as an example? Cause it's a horrible ritual that completely invalidates many of the otherwise viable arguments that could be made on the topic?

Also, for clarity, KD's house rule requires a ritual scroll to be used to do standard action rituals and only works on rituals of 10 minutes or less. I don't advocate that solution, but at least if you're going to argue about it, get that detail straight

 

[KarinsDad]

You missed the part where I flat out said it's not fun for non-ritual casters to be rendered obsolete by ritual casting.

That covers -both- those right there.

Obsolete?

See, that's where your argument falls apart.

You assume that the Ritual Caster using Knock once in two levels (the amount someone might want to spend ritual fees for in combat for that particular ritual) somehow invalidates the fun of the player using the Lock Picking portion of Thievery five or more times a level. And it does nothing to the Find Traps portion of Thievery.

"Ooh. The Rogue was busy in combat, so the Sorcerer rushed over and unlocked the door in combat.

I hope the player of the Rogue doesn't go home and cry."

That's what your POV sounds like.

Sorry, but it sounds totally whiny. As if the player of the Rogue is entitled to have the only PC that can open the locked door. It's not as if the Sorcerer will be creating 50 such ritual scrolls when there are so many other ritual scrolls that he might want as well.

The problem is that it -isn't- balanced. Ritual casting isn't something that gets more fun or better when more people have it. You stick it on the ritual caster, and you go.

So, yes, all this is more fun for the ritual caster, but a lot of it can come at a direct challenge to the roles and abilities of other characters. Instant cast is -exactly- the sort of thing that you don't want. Why bother with stunts and such when you can simply ritual yourself past the obstacle?

It's -only- more fun for -one- player, but it really sucks a -lot- of the fun out of the game for the rest. Outside combat, it's not -so- bad because of the non-turn-based nature of the game, the -players- can collaborate a little better, and even then, ten minutes is -hardly- a long time. Really. it isn't.

Quite frankly, this already happens in the game system.

My Rogue PC takes Perception. I'm at +12 with it. A different non-Rogue PC takes Perception, but he min maxes it and he is at +19.

Doesn't that still make my player feel a bit inadequate in a situation for which his role might be well suited?


Your imbalance claim and you lack of fun claim are assumptions. You assume that players won't have fun if the spell casters pulls out a ritual scroll in combat once in a while.

I call horse hockey on these assumptions.

Your claim boils down to claiming that people who play the game with the core rules have more fun playing the game then the people playing in my campaign.

My game is unfair. My game is unbalanced. My game is unfun.

What a load of crap.

This is like claiming that the only people who have fun playing DND is 4E players, not 3.5 players.

 

[DracoSuave]

The hilarious part is these god-like Superheroes impatiently standing around unable to do anything.

It's like the image of Superman pacing, waiting around for Wonder Woman to go pee before they can leave.

Sorry if you don't get the humor of a minor mundane event preventing the heroes from going off and saving the world.

A more apt analogy would be Superman waiting a few minutes for Batman to hastily assemble his various Bat-a-whatevers for the fight ahead.... or Batman waiting while he analyzes a sample on his Batcomputeranaylzer....

....or Batman waiting while he Batanalyzes the construction plans of a place he is about to go in to.

We're not talking about waiting to pee. We're talking about waiting for something important. Stuff that happens off camera, and is thus glossed over, but it's unrealistic to think that the Superfriends are a bunch of ADHD obsessed crazies who'd leave Batman behind just cause Batman has some detective work to do for them.