Wizards in 4E have been 'neutered' argument...

[pawsplay]

Again, where are you getting this?

Can you give me some sort of cite from the 1e books? Or an example that this was at all commonplace?

-O

What specifically? Glancing at the DMG 1e, page 115,

In order to avoid the length and complication of separate formulae for
each type of potion, the following simple system is given. Both the cost in
gold pieces and the days of compounding and infusing are determined by
use of the experience points award (as shown on the list of magic items)
amounts. If no experience points are shown, then the potion has o 200 g.p.
base for cost and time determination. The point award for a given potion is
also the amount of gold pieces the magic-user must pay in order to concoct
the basic formula - with rare herbs and spices and even more exotic
ingredients. The number of days required to brew the potion is the same
figure, each hundred or fraction thereof indicating one full day of
compounding time to manufacture the liquid, i.e., 250 x.p. = 250 g.p.
basic costsand 3 full days of time...

Most important to the manufacture of a potion is the substance of its
power, the special ingredient. The list of potions and special ingredients
possible is given for your convenience only. You may opt for any reasonable
special ingredient you deem suitable for a potion, keeping in mind
difficulty of obtaining the material (hopefully high or greater) and its
sympathetic equivalency or relationship to the end result of quaffing the
potion...

Suggested Special Ingredients For Potions:
Type of potion Suggested Special Ingredient(s)
healing ogre magi blood of thread of saint’s garment**

 

[Nifft]

I'm looking at DM's Option: High Level Campaigns right now, which is more specific than the DMG, and it says a potion of healing (2d4+2 hit points) involves 200 gp, two days, and one "rare" ingredient, such as silk, roc feathers, etc. That's a snap. That's what we were specifically talking about, the availability of low level healing, not creating high level magic items.

I'm going to assume the High Level Campaigns in the title doesn't mean it's restricted to campaigns with PCs of high level?

Cheers, -- N

 

[Obryn]

I'm looking at DM's Option: High Level Campaigns right now, which is more specific than the DMG, and it says a potion of healing (2d4+2 hit points) involves 200 gp, two days, and one "rare" ingredient, such as silk, roc feathers, etc. That's a snap. That's what we were specifically talking about, the availability of low level healing, not creating high level magic items.

Wait, is that one of the pseudo-2.5 books?

I know I'm not talking about 2e, and particularly not the non-core Option books. This conversation hasn't involved splitting ability scores into two sub-scores, or spell point systems, either.

-O

 

[pawsplay]

I'm going to assume the High Level Campaigns in the title doesn't mean it's restricted to campaigns with PCs of high level?

Cheers, -- N

It just means that magic item creation was considered the province of high-level characters in AD&D. The magic item creation system is compatible with the the version in the DMG, I just referred to that book because it is more specific about special ingredients. The system has been virtually the same from AD&D 1e to 2e.

 

[Obryn]

What specifically? Glancing at the DMG 1e, page 115,

OK, great!

So... there's a small gp cost, a huge time cost (3 days per potion, minimum), and a requirement for special components for which you'd presumably need to adventure.

Nothing about buying them at your local temple, though.

-O

 

[pawsplay]

Wait, is that one of the pseudo-2.5 books?

I know I'm not talking about 2e, and particularly not the non-core Option books. This conversation hasn't involved splitting ability scores into two sub-scores, or spell point systems, either.

-O

Ok, so look at the page 177 of the 2e DMG. Suggested cost of potion of healing is 200 gp, plus whatever special ingredients desired by the DM. Same as 1e, same as the High Level book.

 

[pawsplay]

OK, great!

So... there's a small gp cost, a huge time cost (3 days per potion, minimum), and a requirement for special components for which you'd presumably need to adventure.

Nothing about buying them at your local temple, though.

-O

Does the temple have a high-level cleric? If so, then the potion can be manufactured. All that remains is gathering the ingredients and convincing the cleric to create the potion. Finding and killing an ogre mage is a pretty straightforward endeavor for a high level party.

 

[Campbell]

I'm looking at DM's Option: High Level Campaigns right now, which is more specific than the DMG, and it says a potion of healing (2d4+2 hit points) involves 200 gp, two days, and one "rare" ingredient, such as silk, roc feathers, etc. That's a snap. That's what we were specifically talking about, the availability of low level healing, not creating high level magic items.

Whereas in 3e creating a wand of cure light wounds involves 375 gold, 30 xp, and one day. That nets you 50 1d8+1 charges. That's 7.5 gold and 0.6 xp per charge.

2e = 200 gold for 2d4+2 healing.
3e = 7.5 gold and 0.6 xp for 1d8+1 healing.

That's not exactly what I'd call a trivial difference.

 

[pawsplay]

Whereas in 3e creating a wand of cure light wounds involves 375 gold, 30 xp, and one day. That nets you 50 1d8+1 charges. That's 7.5 gold and 0.6 xp per charge.

2e = 200 gold for 2d4+2 healing.
3e = 7.5 gold and 0.6 xp for 1d8+1 healing.

That's not exactly what I'd call a trivial difference.

However, I am not claiming that there is a trivial difference. This particular line of discussion concerned the availability of non-clerical healing. As I have noted, potions of healing were fairly routine to acquire. If you run out, you could always go raiding the lairs of dark nagas and orcs... orc lairs always have 1-8 potions of various types, and dark nagas have 3-8 potions in their lairs.

While some of the assumptions between editions are substantially different, they are alike in that mid to high level characters can readily acquire healing magic.

 

[FireLance]

However, I am not claiming that there is a trivial difference. This particular line of discussion concerned the availability of non-clerical healing. As I have noted, potions of healing were fairly routine to acquire. If you run out, you could always go raiding the lairs of dark nagas and orcs... orc lairs always have 1-8 potions of various types, and dark nagas have 3-8 potions in their lairs.

Actually clearing out monster lairs in order to get the potions would be quite grindy, though, even though it was theoretically possible and fairly low-risk for a high-level character. Ditto for fighting monsters to get special components to brew the potions.

I think the key difference between 3e and earlier editions is not so much how feasible it was for the character but how time-consuming it is for the player to get the potions. To use a videogame example, it is the difference between grinding monsters to get a random loot drop and buying what you want with gold at a magic shop.