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I guess I really do prefer simplicity

I realize this puts me in the vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast minority of rpgers out there.

Maybe, but our simplistic needs allow us to enjoy more of the game and less of the builds. I really dreaded "hitting the books" every time my character levelled up. As a side bonus players that don't push the DM to allow them to play thier half troll/ half dragon fighter/wizard/ random prestige class character as the only way to be an individual tend to give a harried DM less of a headache.
 

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Of course, the current set of RPGers has been shaped by many years of selection through the 'sell rules supplements to a dwindling pool of enthusiasts' model.
None of which appeal to me, which is the problem with rules-light systems IMO: You have to hope that your DM is 100% phenomenal because the rules really don't give much guidance.
This is surely one of the main differences here: someone's who's been frustrated as a player by bad DMs throwing their weight around is likely to want tighter and thus more protective rules than someone who's not had those experiences. I'm in the latter camp, and for '100% phenomenal' there I'd say 'barely competent'.
 

For what it's worth, I would gladly play an rpg in which each character was mechanically identical. The character building aspect of rpgs holds no interest for me. (Don't get me wrong, I love a good random mutation/super-power chart as much as the next guy.) Laundry lists of spells, feats, skills, etc. just make my eyes glaze over. Char-gen more complex than core rules 1e is more than I can really stomach, with 1e being a shade on the too-complex side for me.

I realize this puts me in the vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast minority of rpgers out there.

Not as small a minority as you might think...

I for one agree with you 100%.
 

When I went looking for a simpler RPG to read through and start thinking about something I would want to teach my kids when they get older, I looked at a few titles. The old blue cover Basic D&D, Advanced D&D, 3.5, Pathfinder, 4E, Castles and Crusades, True 20... none of them were what I was looking for. The closest was the Basic D&D to what I was looking for, but even that I felt was a bit too complex.

But then I found Basic Fantasy, (not sure if it was mentioned in the thread already) but it's super simple to understand and explain to younger players. Seems easy enough to translate adventures from almost any edition too. Basic Fantasy Role-Playing Game
 

When I went looking for a simpler RPG to read through and start thinking about something I would want to teach my kids when they get older, I looked at a few titles. The old blue cover Basic D&D, Advanced D&D, 3.5, Pathfinder, 4E, Castles and Crusades, True 20... none of them were what I was looking for. The closest was the Basic D&D to what I was looking for, but even that I felt was a bit too complex.

But then I found Basic Fantasy, (not sure if it was mentioned in the thread already) but it's super simple to understand and explain to younger players. Seems easy enough to translate adventures from almost any edition too. Basic Fantasy Role-Playing Game

I love BFRPGs mix of old-school Basic-style rules and play with the more "modern" mix of things from AD&D/3e (upwards AC, race/class separate). Its customizable, its fast and easy, and its free.
 

Count me totally in the crowd that believes that mechanical diversity is not required for diversity in play.

Heck, look at every point based game out there. GURPS, for example, has no class or even skill specific mechanics. Everything is resolved the exact same way. Most skill based games are like this. Everyone uses the same mechanics for resolving pretty much everything, the only difference between my character and yours is different skills.

I think it's a mistake to think that rules light requires more DM intervention. Not necesarily. If the rules are robust enough and enough guidance is given within the rules set to let you know how to extrapolate existing rules, then the load on the GM is no longer so marked.

For example, in the Sufficiently Advanced game I'm currently playing, there is no difference between one character and the other mechanically. No PC has any PC specific mechanics. ((Although all PC's do have some abilities that NPC's do not - meta game editorial abilities for the player)) And, all conflicts (whether combat or not) are resolved by a very simple mechanic - d10xability, d10xskill, pick the higher.

The mechanics are broad enough that this can be applied to pretty much anything you can reasonably be expected to try, from hand to hand combat, to waging large scale warfare with thousands of bio-engineered soldiers each capable of launching point singularity weapons. ((Did I mention I REALLY like this game :D ))

As the GM, I certainly don't feel like I'm flailing in the dark mechanically, picking arbitrary ideas out of the air to determine the results of various conflicts. The rules set is robust enough and there are more than enough examples, that picking and choosing and extrapolating is fairly easy.

I think we're long past the days in early RPG's where the games left the GM's swinging in the wind.
 

Heck, look at every point based game out there. GURPS, for example, has no class or even skill specific mechanics. Everything is resolved the exact same way. Most skill based games are like this. Everyone uses the same mechanics for resolving pretty much everything, the only difference between my character and yours is different skills.

Er, but point based systems tend to have insane levels of support for mechanical diversity. In HERO, if I want to shoot an icebeam that freezes people, I can build a EB linked to a DEX Drain. If I want to shoot a shoot a laserbeam that blinds you I can build an EB linked to a Flash. If I want to shoot a huge boulder at you I can build an EB with Extra Knockback. And so on.

HERO provides a toolset (in a lovingly crafted physics textbook size) to build quite possibly anything you can imagine for your character. Anything. I'm hazarding a guess that GURPS is more or less the same deal (I actually have never played it). If I say I want to be a ridiculously good sword fighter, or the most silver of silver-tongues, or impossible to hit, or whatever, I can build it. How is that anything but mechanical diversity?

I think you are perhaps confusing mechanical diversity for action resolution diversity (to coin a term). At least as far as what I see mechanical diversity to be, I think we're not in sync on the term. To me, mechanical diversity is a measure of the ability to say "I want to do X" or "I want to be X" and have rules in the system to support just that.
 

I'll admit, I'm not terribly familiar with the nuts and bolts of Hero.

But, from what you said Tyrlaan, would the three powers you mentioned use entirely different mechanics? Would one power use a percentile check, while another use an ability check while the third uses the target's saving throws? Or, is there one single mechanic that determines whether or not the power attack is successful?

I think you're actually nailing it on the head. To me, if the three powers you talk about use the exact same resolution method, then there is no mechanical difference between the three powers. In the same way, in 4e, there is no mechanical difference between using a fighter's martial power and a wizard's arcane one. They both use the exact same mechanics. The only difference between the two is in the specifics.

To put it another way, if fighter A uses a longsword and fighter B uses a mace (assume 3e D&D for a second), mechanically, there's no real difference. They both use the same attack rolls, they might roll different dice for damage, but, that's about it. The mechanics they use to determine their actions are identical, all that changes is the result.

I strongly disagree with any idea that maintains that you require mechanical diversity, or "action resolution diversity" if you prefer, to have a difference in play between characters. Like I said, most skill based games have no difference between how skill X and skill Y are resolved.

The diversity comes from the player, not the ruleset. My hero uses an ice beam, yours uses a blinding beam. Mechanically, they're pretty much identical (sure, they use different ability scores to determine my chances, but, the mechanics are the same). The diversity comes from the player and how he chooses to narrate his actions.
 

But, from what you said Tyrlaan, would the three powers you mentioned use entirely different mechanics? Would one power use a percentile check, while another use an ability check while the third uses the target's saving throws? Or, is there one single mechanic that determines whether or not the power attack is successful?
All to hit rolls in HERO follow one mechanic. However the Flash rolls "damage" differently than a standard energy blast (EB) and goes against Flash defense instead of standard defenses. Extra knockback alters the math for figuring out how far someone goes reeling after you hit them, therefore arguably changing the action resolution mechanics. A stat Drain is resolved similarly to a Flash, but goes against yet another non-standard defense.

Figured I'd expand upon it a bit since you're unfamiliar with the system. But I consider it moot because resolution mechanics wasn't my point.

I think you're actually nailing it on the head. To me, if the three powers you talk about use the exact same resolution method, then there is no mechanical difference between the three powers. In the same way, in 4e, there is no mechanical difference between using a fighter's martial power and a wizard's arcane one. They both use the exact same mechanics. The only difference between the two is in the specifics.

To put it another way, if fighter A uses a longsword and fighter B uses a mace (assume 3e D&D for a second), mechanically, there's no real difference. They both use the same attack rolls, they might roll different dice for damage, but, that's about it. The mechanics they use to determine their actions are identical, all that changes is the result.

I strongly disagree with any idea that maintains that you require mechanical diversity, or "action resolution diversity" if you prefer, to have a difference in play between characters. Like I said, most skill based games have no difference between how skill X and skill Y are resolved.

The diversity comes from the player, not the ruleset. My hero uses an ice beam, yours uses a blinding beam. Mechanically, they're pretty much identical (sure, they use different ability scores to determine my chances, but, the mechanics are the same). The diversity comes from the player and how he chooses to narrate his actions.
Your hearing me, but you're not listening. You're defining mechanical diversity solely as action resolution diversity. I'm not. Action resolution is just a small slice of the mechanics pie. Let me try to explain by example.

Action resolution diversity:
Fighter swings a sword; rolls to-hit vs. AC.
Mage slings a spell; potential victim rolls a saving throw vs. mage's spell DC

Mechanical diversity (that's not action resolution):
Bob the Fighter is better with a greatsword than most, in fact one of the best; Bob has Weapon Focus: Greatsword, Weapon Specialization: Greatsword, Greater Weapon Focus: Greatsword, and Greater Weapon Specialization: Greatsword. In addition, he has picked up the PrC Greatsword Pwnmaster.
Joe the Fighter is at his best wielding two weapons, so the greatsword really isn't his thing. Instead he has: Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and the PrC Aragorn Wannabe.

The latter, not the former, is what I'm talking about with regards to mechanical diversity supporting character individuality.

Honestly, I vastly prefer homogeneous action resolution mechanics. To me, it makes for a much cleaner game and smoother play. And, that's not where you're ever going to find support for character individuality. Action resolution diversity gets you various mini-games from which the player can choose to use at the gaming table.
 


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