Fixing force spells

[Kerrick]

Tequila Sunrise's thread gave me an idea on how to deal with force spells. Okay, it's mostly been done before - 4E, and TS to some degree - but I have some different ideas.

Basically, ALL force effects have hit points. Bigby's interposing hand has hit points and AC (though none of the others do, for some reason), so you could extend this to all other force effects. They have hit points equal to the caster's max, DR equal to casting bonus/-*, and can only be damaged with physical attacks, disintegrate spells, or dispel magic. Non-stationary effects like the hand spells also have AC.

*For example, a wall of force cast by a wizard with 17 Int would have DR 3/-.

I'm kind of debating between DR or a fast healing effect whereby the effect regains 1-3 points of damage per round. Maybe I could do both - Conjuration effects (wall of force) have DR, while Evocation effects (Bigby's hand) regenerate damage?

 

[Celebrim]

Tequila Sunrise's thread gave me an idea on how to deal with force spells. Okay, it's mostly been done before - 4E, and TS to some degree - but I have some different ideas.

Force effects in my campaign are destroyed whenever any single single physical blow exceeds their hit points or a strength check exceeds their break DC. You can wear down a force effect with small blows, but you can shatter it with a really big one. They effectively have 'super-fast regeneration', or alternatively another way to look at it is that they only have 1 hitpoint but they have really high damage resistance.

Doing it the way you suggest would I think be a total nerf. The whole idea of wall of force is that it represents a relatively impenetratable barrior. If a team of orcs can knock one down, it has little real use.

I did that because I wanted martial classes to have some at least theoretical way of countering them.

TS ties hit points to the casters hit points. I've always tried to tie it to caster level. You could also just make it a static total, like '50'.

 

[Asha'man]

I give them HP, but I make them vulnerable only to cold iron weapons -it's supposed to be the "anti-magic" material, right?

 

[ValhallaGH]

I give them HP, but I make them vulnerable only to cold iron weapons -it's supposed to be the "anti-magic" material, right?

Now that's a nice twist on the rules.

Well done.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

My only reservation about giving force effects DR would be "Is the added math worth whatever it is you're aiming for?" Personally I'd say that DR = casting stat is not worth the added math, but I'll leave it up to you.

TS ties hit points to the casters hit points. I've always tried to tie it to caster level.

If caster level could be geometrically multiplied, like the hp of most combatants, I'd really like that solution. Maybe 5 hp/CL for 1st-2nd level force spells, 10 hp/CL for 3rd-4th level force spells, etc.

I give them HP, but I make them vulnerable only to cold iron weapons -it's supposed to be the "anti-magic" material, right?

As much as I dislike special materials, that is pretty awesome fluff-wise.

 

[Celebrim]

As much as I dislike special materials, that is pretty awesome fluff-wise.

I agree on both counts. Another classic example of the tension between good fluff and balanced game mechanics.

I should say that:

a) I'm of the opinion that regular fire forged and hammer tempered steel is 'cold forged iron'. 'Cold' refers to the tempering and quenching process (as opposed to raw 'pig iron') and 'forged' refers to the heating. Misreading this term has led to alot of confusion. Iron in general and steel in particular was effacious against fairies because as a product of technology it was effacious against magical things.
b) There are really only 4 special weapon making metals in my game: galvorn or 'true tin', adamantium or 'true iron', mithril or 'true silver', and orichalcum or 'true gold'. Each 'true' form counts as the lesser metal as well, so mithril bites things only effected by silver and adamantium bites things effected by 'cold iron'.

 

[Kerrick]

Force effects in my campaign are destroyed whenever any single single physical blow exceeds their hit points or a strength check exceeds their break DC. You can wear down a force effect with small blows, but you can shatter it with a really big one. They effectively have 'super-fast regeneration', or alternatively another way to look at it is that they only have 1 hitpoint but they have really high damage resistance.

How can you wear it down with "small blows" if only a strike that exceeds its hit points will destroy it?

Doing it the way you suggest would I think be a total nerf. The whole idea of wall of force is that it represents a relatively impenetratable barrior. If a team of orcs can knock one down, it has little real use.

Impenetrable barrier = absolute. Same as save or die, or immunities; it's a game-breaker. OTOH, TS's idea of using 5 or 10 hp/level could be a better fix.

I did that because I wanted martial classes to have some at least theoretical way of countering them.

Exactly.

TS ties hit points to the casters hit points. I've always tried to tie it to caster level. You could also just make it a static total, like '50'.

I (and I think TS, too) was going with the precedent set for Bigby's Interposing Hand. Course, there's nothing wrong with changing that one to fit a new rule, either.

My only reservation about giving force effects DR would be "Is the added math worth whatever it is you're aiming for?" Personally I'd say that DR = casting stat is not worth the added math, but I'll leave it up to you.

I was thinking about that while I wrote the post; I was a little rushed for time, so I just tossed it out. DR is effectively just added hit points, but it's not all that hard to subtract a few points from whatever damage is dealt. Say you've got a wall with 50 hp and DR 5/-. That DR applies against every single attack directed against it. Compare this to a wall with 100 hp. A fighter with a greatsword and PA hacking on it, dealing (let's say) 15 points per hit, three times per round, will drop the 100-point wall in a round and a half. The 50-point wall with DR will last for over three rounds.

Since the wall only lasts for 1 round/level anyway, this doesn't change much - it just makes it into a temporary barrier that someone could hack through, given some time and effort. That being said, I like the idea of it having DR 10/cold iron or adamantine instead, along with, say 10 hp/level. Then the fighter trying to hack his way through a wall cast by a L15 mage (assuming he's using a standard steel weapon) would take 10 rounds to get through it - almost as long as the wall would last anyway, but it still gives the fighter a fighting chance (no pun intended).

I should say that:

a) I'm of the opinion that regular fire forged and hammer tempered steel is 'cold forged iron'. 'Cold' refers to the tempering and quenching process (as opposed to raw 'pig iron') and 'forged' refers to the heating. Misreading this term has led to alot of confusion. Iron in general and steel in particular was effacious against fairies because as a product of technology it was effacious against magical things.

Technically, "cold iron" is just an archaic term referring to iron or steel in general. I treat it as iron that's been hammered into shape using low or no heat.

 

[Celebrim]

How can you wear it down with "small blows" if only a strike that exceeds its hit points will destroy it?

Pardon me. I have a very nasty habit when writing of failing to put the negative word into the sentence, resulting in something that makes no sense in context. That 'but' is meant to contrast two ideas. Here the sentence should read, "You can't wear it down with small blows..."

Impenetrable barrier = absolute. Same as save or die, or immunities; it's a game-breaker. OTOH, TS's idea of using 5 or 10 hp/level could be a better fix.

Relatively impenetrable is what I said. By that I mean that weaker creatures would find it impossible to pass it. However, a suitably potent being could break it, so as to not create a 'game-breaker' situation.

As for using 5 hp/level, that's what I already do.

 

[Kerrick]

Pardon me. I have a very nasty habit when writing of failing to put the negative word into the sentence, resulting in something that makes no sense in context. That 'but' is meant to contrast two ideas. Here the sentence should read, "You can't wear it down with small blows..."

Hehe.

Relatively impenetrable is what I said. By that I mean that weaker creatures would find it impossible to pass it. However, a suitably potent being could break it, so as to not create a 'game-breaker' situation.

As for using 5 hp/level, that's what I already do.

So we're in agreement on that point - making it something that'll hold back the ravening hordes, but not a more powerful lieutenant is a good thing. Course, if it's "relatively impenetrable" (and I did catch that the first time), then a horde of orcs would eventually break it down. Unless, of course, you add DR.