3E & 4E Love and Hate Polls - What does it mean?

[delericho]

If (and it's a big if) those results are indicative of the gamer population in general, it would seem to indicate that few people are lukewarm on 4e - many really like it, and some absolutely hate it.

This would indicate that WotC have a major hit on their hands, because people who hate it are just as likely to talk about it as people who love it, and that drives a constant interest in their game.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

The numbers are not stunning. They are quite logical. It is sad, though absolutely predictable, that the 4e haters are going to try to use my fond rememberance of 3e to run down 4e and WotC. 4e is a much, much better game.

Please stop with the us and them crap! We have all played and enjoyed D&D whatever the edition. Trying to pre-empt what some supposed "them" think is unhelpful and your last statement was a blatant troll. EN World is finally getting over the edition wars as people are more accepting of criticism of their favourite edition, so please don't slow the trend.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[BryonD]

I actually disagree with this.

At the end of the day, these polls are for NOTHING but entertainment purposes. And I know in my case, they are working. I'm entertained.
But certainly no one is going to change their mind and no one making any business choices is going to be influenced by *these* polls.

I do agree that claiming they don't reflect anything at all is just sticking your head in the sand. They reflect something. So do funhouse mirrors. These polls are seriously twisted mirrors. And every one distorts something differently.

Of course if you look in 50 funhouse mirrors and your nose is big in every one, it might be because you have a big nose.

 

[BryonD]

Unless someone is going to do a T-test or other statistics on these polls they are pretty much meaningless.

meh, There is no point in that. I'm confident that a reasonable statistically significant difference in present in the data. The limitations are in the representativeness of the data to begin with.

 

[BryonD]

try to use my fond rememberance

Bummer. If only you had not voted there would be no case to present. shucks

 

[keterys]

Too many unknown variables. How many people who never played 3e or couldn't be bothered didn't read the thread or vote on its poll? How many people who dislike 4e don't open any thread about it, even a poll about whether they like it? What is the cross section of enworld that plays 3e vs 4e? Are 3e players more or less internet driven? How many people who hate 4e will just answer that they dislike it, in 8 years? How many people who hated 3e 8 years ago answered that they disliked it, now? What can you tell from there being many more respondents to the 4e thread than the 3e one?

Internet polls are rarely meaningful, and one that has a tiny percentage of respondents all the more meaningless. Among other things, they all suffer from the simple flaw that you opt-in to answer them, so your highest degree of respondents are those with a torch to bear or axe to grind.

 

[darjr]

eh... I didn't vote in the 3e poll.

 

[Korgoth]

So far those are some stunning numbers, particularly the percentage of folks that actually "hate" 4E (over 22%), and the huge difference in the approval ratings (almost 60% for 3E vs. 46% for 4E).

I think the polls are good, but there is an issue in the "love" and "hate" language.

I voted that I "hate" 4E. That doesn't mean that I want to punch it in the face, any more than the fact that I "love" Classic Traveller means that I want to marry it and make babies inside of it. The language sounds very strident but when I used it I just mean that, having played 4E, I would rather not play any game at all than play that game. Whereas, to me, "dislike" means that I might play it grudgingly or for some other benefit.

I agree that 4E has been very polarizing. I'm not a fan of 3E either (though I voted "Mixed Bag" because the question included the OGL, which I think is a great thing and allows for the creation of very light, Old School games apart from number-crunching dicefests like 3E), but I think that one thing 3E did was open up the D&D hardcore base (us dudes) to more sophisticated thinking about the structure of D&D and how the rules cash out in actual play (and thus produce differing play experiences). Those who have interacted with me online know that I'm an Old School Renaissance guy; but I don't think the OSR could have happened without both the questions that 3E raised (even if it answered them wrong, from my perspective) and the transparency of its design. On top of that, the OGL lets you end up with things like True20 which are pretty light and elegant.

So 3E was more things to more people. But 4E is very focused, very untraditional and very integrated. It is what it is, it does what it does and if you don't like it take a hike. This, coupled with the fact that it does not approach things in the way of its predecessors, and also with the fact that some of the designers evinced a smug and condescending attitude during the runup to the game's release has resulted in a fractured fan base. There was a reactionary phase in which the camps were beginning to form but really neither the supporters nor the detractors really had much of a chance to give it a spin; by now, we've all had a chance to give it a fair shake (hopefully a fair one!) and the fracturing hasn't subsided.

Part of the problem with a rigorously coherent design is that it's less flexible than a sparse or distributed design. In the case of the former, you pretty much are either in the market for what it is selling or you're not; in the latter, there's more room for negotiation.

 

[Garmorn]

Well I think Internet Polls are worth something but not as polls. If you are responsible for market research they tend to bring up things that the researches might not thought of. The debates that are not just flames does let a few who have not made up their minds. It also give them contrary views to consider.

As far as the results. I think it has more to do with the amount of change between systems as much as anything else.

I remember a similar split in D&D players when AD&D1 split with the Basic rules. There was a major over haul of the system along with two supported systems.

Between AD&D 1 and 2 the changes where mild and more evolutionary the revolutionary. There was some dissatisfaction, players staying with the older rules ect. but not near as much.

AD&D to 3e was again a major change. Again the split happened. Not nearly as bad as between AD&D and Basic but worst then between 1 and 2.

Along comes 4e. A major revolution in design. Some will even say radical. Radical changes tend to put people off. Specially in a roleplaying group. It can mean the death of old characters and campiagns. Cause vast changes in a DM's home brew world ect. This one not only did that but also altered the feel and flow of the game in the short and long run. Add to that we again have two competing versions that are getting major support.

 

[ppaladin123]

If (and it's a big if) those results are indicative of the gamer population in general, it would seem to indicate that few people are lukewarm on 4e - many really like it, and some absolutely hate it.

This would indicate that WotC have a major hit on their hands, because people who hate it are just as likely to talk about it as people who love it, and that drives a constant interest in their game.

As I noted in the other thread:

I think it has more to do with it being a voluntary poll. People with strong emotions one way or the other are more likely to participate in voluntary polls. There is little reason to come here to post, "meh" or "mixed bag," though obviously a few people do.