Revisionist game publishing

[MrMyth]

Also, it's a really poor idea to start using the NPC versions of the races in the MM as the baseline for what power level is 'proper'. Some are weaker than the PHB races, and some (namely, those with Oversized) are stronger. They simply did not go through the same level of work that the PHB races did, and that is why they have the big disclaimer about needing DM approval.

Complaining that the balanced version of the race is worse than the interim measure just doesn't carry any weight.

 

[Romtos]

Is the reason the MM write up of races is for DM reference only that it doesn't fully function in the character builder? I tested and it seems that the Oversized Weapon property is not taken into account in the character builder. Or you're supposed to select a Large weapon but this doesn't seem to be possible.

 

[AntiStateQuixote]

On the preferences screen in the CB there's an option to show Large weapons.

 

[Romtos]

On the preferences screen in the CB there's an option to show Large weapons.

Cool, new stuff.
My bad.

 

[Dice4Hire]

So if you had to play a human instead of an insane noble or other high level human, you would play a different race? The MM is not PC territory. I think 4E is clear on that.

 

[catsclaw227]

Also, it's a really poor idea to start using the NPC versions of the races in the MM as the baseline for what power level is 'proper'. Some are weaker than the PHB races, and some (namely, those with Oversized) are stronger. They simply did not go through the same level of work that the PHB races did, and that is why they have the big disclaimer about needing DM approval.

As an FYI, I believe Goring Charge was added as well as some skill bonuses to the full write-up so it's not like they lost oversized without compensation, plus they now have access to a bunch of cool racial feats that weren't around before.

Now, if there were an assumption that PCs, NPCs, and monsters are built in the same way - like there is in 3.5 - this would be a perfectly valid complaint. Since this isn't a 4e assumption, you can no more make a giant-weapon-wielding minotaur than you can a Ghaele of Winter or a Kobold Dragonshield. Players simply don't make their characters using the same rules as DMs do when making monsters and NPCs.

This was my point, basically better presented.

There isn't a "mini-taur" as you claim. There are monster minotaurs in the MM, Dungeon Mag, Dungeon Delve, some uniques in Elder Evils, Eberron, and Exemplars of Evil. And there is an NPC MM write up in teh back of the MM.

The PC race is in PHB2 and it has the racial abilities that monster minotaurs have (Goring Charge), even the monsters in the MM don't use Oversized weapons. Just because it doesn't use Large weapons (no other PC race does) doesn't make it a mini-taur, nor does it mean that they don't get "grownup toys".

What about the PC race makes them lesser than the monsters in the MM (and not the NPC racial writeup in the back, but the actual monsters)?

 

[Shemeska]

Unlike in 3e, there's no real way to make a monster PC in 4e, without jumping through some hoops or reskinning.

Which makes about as much sense to me as arbitrary racial level limits. I just can't suspend disbelief to accept for instance two minotaurs both being minotaurs and of the exact same race, but with completely different abilities because one is a "monster" and the other is its gimpy little brother that's kosher and approved for PC use. As others have said, if I want to play a minotaur, I'll play a minotaur. If playing X non-standard race doesn't make sense for a campaign or happens to be too powerful compared to other PCs of X level, then it's up to the DM to say no, rather than game itself making lesser versions of that creature for PC usage that are still supposed to be the same creature but very much aren't.

And this isn't a 4e thing either. I really loathed the "Nerra" and "Spikers" in the 3.x Planar Handbook because they were essentially runty slaads and runty bladelings for PC use because real slaadi and bladelings were "monsters" and obviously not for play in a campaign. Play a slaadi or play a bladeling and deal with and explore the thematic issues they bring up and the differences in inherent racial power as a DM that you'll need to handle. Don't gimp one or the other and act like the lucky PC is still getting to play an actual slaadi or actual bladeling.

 

[AllisterH]

Sounds like a paragon tier feat to me!

No it's not.

Oversized completely eclipses any other possible racial feat at that level.

 

[Shroomy]

No it's not.

Oversized completely eclipses any other possible racial feat at that level.

To add to this, I believe the only way you can currently wield large weapons is via the 24th level epic destiny feature of the Eternal Defender.

 

[blargney the second]

By the way, oversized isn't gone from 4e. Bugbears still have it in the character builder.