3E & 4E Love and Hate Polls - What does it mean?

[jdrakeh]

No, the fact is that a poll was hacked. Period.

The result of that hack made 4e appear more popular. But there is exactly zero evidence as to the motive. For all anyone knows, the polls could have been hacked in 3e's favor. The only person who knows is the one(s) who did it.

To me, it just looks like some mediocre hacker wannabe decided to incite a skirmish in the edition war, for grits and shiggles. Sadly, it looks like he succeeded

Agreed on all counts.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

D&D 3E & 4E Love and Hate Polls - What does it mean?

Out, out, brief candle!
'Tis but a walking shadow, a poor player
that struts and frets his hour upon the stage
and then is heard no more; it is a tale
told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
signifying nothing.

The Bard rocks. (Even with slight modification…)

 

[N0Man]

No, the fact is that a poll was hacked. Period.

The result of that hack made 4e appear more popular. But there is exactly zero evidence as to the motive. For all anyone knows, the polls could have been hacked in 3e's favor. The only person who knows is the one(s) who did it.

To me, it just looks like some mediocre hacker wannabe decided to incite a skirmish in the edition war, for grits and shiggles. Sadly, it looks like he succeeded

I hate to use the word "hacker"... I think that gives them credit for too much skill.

I lean towards believing it was someone who was just trying to stir up trouble given that it's been my experience that edition hate has been kind of one-sided... I hear a lot of hate towards 4E, but I don't hear much hate towards 3E even among those who greatly prefer 4E and have no interest in ever playing 3E again.

Having a spike of "Love 4E" coinciding with "Hate 3E" just seems inconsistent with this.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

I hate to use the word "hacker"... I think that gives them credit for too much skill.

I lean towards believing it was someone who was just trying to stir up trouble given that it's been my experience that edition hate has been kind of one-sided... I hear a lot of hate towards 4E, but I don't hear much hate towards 3E even among those who greatly prefer 4E and have no interest in ever playing 3E again.

Having a spike of "Love 4E" coinciding with "Hate 3E" just seems inconsistent with this.

I will point out that most of the '3e Hate' has been ad hominem - insults against the players of the older edition, rather than the system - take a look around, there has been a lot of it. From my perspective (admittedly biased by my preference for 3e) attacks against 4e have largely been against either the system itself or the GSL, less frequently against the players.

All too often, a comment about why someone likes 3e or, more often, dislikes/hates 4e is followed by someone insulting the 3e player for stating his preference. In part this is because some of the 4e group is feeling defensive, and is falling back on the tried and true primate defense of flinging poo.

Even this thread has had more than its share.

Me, I have had my fill of 4e without ever playing a single game, largely because I hate the GSL. I do not like the rules, feeling them too gamist, but it is my dislike for the GSL that is the controlling factor. Otherwise my feelings would be sort of negative-neutral.

Conversely, I like 3e, but love the OGL - I consider it one of the best ideas in gaming since the invention of polyhedral dice. How I would feel if WotC had kept the OGL in place when changing editions.... I don't know - as I said, the rules don't attract me, but there are lots of games out there that I don't much like, and therefor say nothing about.

The result is my own feeling of defensiveness, that WotC, on some level, betrayed the good will that I had invested in them as a result of the OGL.

It is unlikely that insulting either me or my preferred game will cause me to switch preferences.

The Auld Grump, now pardon me, I need to go find some poo to fling....

 

[delericho]

I lean towards believing it was someone who was just trying to stir up trouble given that it's been my experience that edition hate has been kind of one-sided... I hear a lot of hate towards 4E, but I don't hear much hate towards 3E even among those who greatly prefer 4E and have no interest in ever playing 3E again.

I will point out that most of the '3e Hate' has been ad hominem - insults against the players of the older edition, rather than the system - take a look around, there has been a lot of it. From my perspective (admittedly biased by my preference for 3e) attacks against 4e have largely been against either the system itself or the GSL, less frequently against the players.

Unfortunately, I think there's plenty of blame to go around. There have been attacks on systems, attacks on licenses and attacks on people made by both sides. And I think to a large extent, a person's impression of what is going on will be heavily skewed by which side of the divide they come down on. (In the interest of full disclosure: my preference is for 3e.)

It's a shame - I can see both strengths and weaknesses in both 3e and 4e, and would very much like to actually discuss these things. Unfortunately, the entrenched nature of the two camps would seem to make that discussion impossible for the foreseeable future.

 

[Rel]

I will point out that most of the '3e Hate' has been ad hominem - insults against the players of the older edition, rather than the system - take a look around, there has been a lot of it. From my perspective (admittedly biased by my preference for 3e) attacks against 4e have largely been against either the system itself or the GSL, less frequently against the players...

Speaking as someone tasked with moderating such insults around here, I don't feel this is the case at all. Both sides of this (pointless, endless) edition war have plenty of participants who are willing to make personal attacks and sweeping generalizations about the other side. To say that it is getting tiresome is a considerable understatement.

 

[N0Man]

I will point out that most of the '3e Hate' has been ad hominem - insults against the players of the older edition, rather than the system - take a look around, there has been a lot of it. From my perspective (admittedly biased by my preference for 3e) attacks against 4e have largely been against either the system itself or the GSL, less frequently against the players.

All too often, a comment about why someone likes 3e or, more often, dislikes/hates 4e is followed by someone insulting the 3e player for stating his preference. In part this is because some of the 4e group is feeling defensive, and is falling back on the tried and true primate defense of flinging poo.

Even this thread has had more than its share.

Me, I have had my fill of 4e without ever playing a single game, largely because I hate the GSL. I do not like the rules, feeling them too gamist, but it is my dislike for the GSL that is the controlling factor. Otherwise my feelings would be sort of negative-neutral.

Conversely, I like 3e, but love the OGL - I consider it one of the best ideas in gaming since the invention of polyhedral dice. How I would feel if WotC had kept the OGL in place when changing editions.... I don't know - as I said, the rules don't attract me, but there are lots of games out there that I don't much like, and therefor say nothing about.

The result is my own feeling of defensiveness, that WotC, on some level, betrayed the good will that I had invested in them as a result of the OGL.

It is unlikely that insulting either me or my preferred game will cause me to switch preferences.

The Auld Grump, now pardon me, I need to go find some poo to fling....

Wait a minute... you are telling me that 4E critics are more likely to criticize based on the game than the players, while at the same time generalizing those who prefer 4E as players who are defensive and criticize the players rather than the game? I can't help but think that there's a certain level of irony in this statement.

That aside, my experience and perspective has been quite different than this. I have actually been called mathematically illiterate for not being bothered by 1:1 diagonals. I have seen tons of characterizations of 4E players as being tweens and teens who are more used to MMO's than a real RPG. I have seen countless instances of posters implying that 4E players prefer 4E's streamlined and simplified rules because they aren't smart enough to play 3E. Or maybe I should point out how in this very thread the generalization was made several times that those who prefer 4E are insecure and defensive and feel a need to cheat on a poll in order to defend their own preference. Or back to your very post where you imply that 4E supporters don't have arguments that have anything to do with the game, but rather just bashing those that prefer 3E.

Please, do not even try to pretend that 4E bashers haven't regularly employed character attacks as part of their 4E critique.

On the other hand, I can't think of a single instance of 4E supporters bashing 4E haters for anything other than being hateful spiteful trolls, which some of them were.

I've played both, have enjoyed both, have criticized both, but have chosen 4E. For me, though both have flaws, 4E has less flaws than 3E does.

However, I do miss OGL.

 

[Herschel]

Comments:
So far those are some stunning numbers, particularly the percentage of folks that actually "hate" 4E (over 22%), and the huge difference in the approval ratings (almost 60% for 3E vs. 46% for 4E). It is also interesting to note that less than 18% of voters actually dislike 3E, while more than twice that number (38%) dislike 4E.

So what does this mean? Again, we all know that EN World is not an accurate cross-section of the total D&D playing populace, but it may be relatively representative of the serious-to-hardcore D&D playing minority, which in turn buys a significant portion of the game books published.* In other words, what I am saying is that I think these polls do matter, that they mean something of value and import to not only Wizards of the Coast but to the future of Dungeons & Dragons. What it means, I don't think anyone really knows. But let's talk about it.
.

This is an utter failure of logic. For one thing, 3E and 4E are not as much separate products but a linear progression. The numbers make perfect sense as most people on this forum were playing 3E despite any feelings of its 'shortcomings'. Many switched, but many also resisted the change to a new edition.

The vast majority of 4E players simply like the new system better, for whatever reason, and that reason generally isn't because they hated the old one. Those that don't are generally sticking vehemently with their older edition and are prone to more profusely oppose the new one.

And that's all the polls tell us.

*remember to include 'on this board' when seeing any reference to gamers.*

 

[N0Man]

The vast majority of 4E players simply like the new system better, for whatever reason, and that reason generally isn't because they hated the old one. Those that don't are generally sticking vehemently with their older edition and are prone to more profusely oppose the new one.

This interpretation is in line with what I said my perception and experience in this "war" has been. The hate really does seem to be one-sided.

I imagine there has been rudeness, hostility, and even valid criticism from both sides, but the outright hate of the actual systems is really aimed at 4E. That doesn't necessarily prove that 4E is more flawed than 3E, but rather that the anti-4E response seems to be very emotional.

I'm not saying that there aren't legitimate criticisms against 4E (or 3E), but much of what seems to be heard in these edition wars is emotional, skewed and often employing the same tired parroted catchphrases.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

You know, I thought it was bad when Hairfoot claimed there was some vast conspiracy against 3.5, but now you guys are coming and saying "No, everyone on ENWorld loves 4e, it's just a conspiracy from a select few to make us hate it!"

Yes, both sides are now complaining there's a conspiracy against them.

What the christ.

In other news, whoever messed with the polls has succeeded in more ways then they could have ever imagined. Way to go.