3E & 4E Love and Hate Polls - What does it mean?

[N0Man]

You know, I thought it was bad when Hairfoot claimed there was some vast conspiracy against 3.5, but now you guys are coming and saying "No, everyone on ENWorld loves 4e, it's just a conspiracy from a select few to make us hate it!"

Yes, both sides are now complaining there's a conspiracy against them.

What the christ.

In other news, whoever messed with the polls has succeeded in more ways then they could have ever imagined. Way to go.

Conspiracy? No. I think by definition conspiracy implies 2 or more parties working together to some end. I think many of the people here seem to think that it was just one single person who stuffed the ballot box. There may be disagreement as to what their motivation was (to make 4E fans look bad for cheating the vote, to bash 3E and praise 4E, or just stir up trouble for Lulz).

However, it doesn't matter because this lone individual isn't a legitimate and fair representation of either side, so it's a moot point.

 

[Jack99]

In reality, Rouse never left WotC and he is working undercover here at ENworld to further the goals of the evil empire of D&D. I bet it was him who hacked the polls..

 

[haakon1]

Sometimes I think there is a slight parallel in the introduction of 4E and the introduction of New Coke in the 80's.

I see it too, but I'm surprised at a 4e fan mentioning this.

I didn't like New Coke, I don't like 4e, and I do agree it's a similar situation. It's not JUST the product itself, but the story that's built up around the product.

Rather than proclaiming whether the faults were with the fans or the producers, I'll leave as coming down a matter of taste and a story that got built around that. Fluff is more powerful than crunch.

 

[haakon1]

The result is my own feeling of defensiveness, that WotC, on some level, betrayed the good will that I had invested in them

And this is precisely the "New Coke" phenomenon. Taste has something to do with. But more importantly, there's a story around betrayal that consumers built up, in both cases.

Whether those feelings are rational are not isn't all that relevant. The fact is, they exist. Whether it's a large number of people or a rump is more relevant to the future of gaming.

I know, let's do a poll on it. Not!

 

[haakon1]

duplicate post

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Wait a minute... you are telling me that 4E critics are more likely to criticize based on the game than the players, while at the same time generalizing those who prefer 4E as players who are defensive and criticize the players rather than the game? I can't help but think that there's a certain level of irony in this statement.

That aside, my experience and perspective has been quite different than this. I have actually been called mathematically illiterate for not being bothered by 1:1 diagonals. I have seen tons of characterizations of 4E players as being tweens and teens who are more used to MMO's than a real RPG. I have seen countless instances of posters implying that 4E players prefer 4E's streamlined and simplified rules because they aren't smart enough to play 3E. Or maybe I should point out how in this very thread the generalization was made several times that those who prefer 4E are insecure and defensive and feel a need to cheat on a poll in order to defend their own preference. Or back to your very post where you imply that 4E supporters don't have arguments that have anything to do with the game, but rather just bashing those that prefer 3E.

Please, do not even try to pretend that 4E bashers haven't regularly employed character attacks as part of their 4E critique.

On the other hand, I can't think of a single instance of 4E supporters bashing 4E haters for anything other than being hateful spiteful trolls, which some of them were.

I've played both, have enjoyed both, have criticized both, but have chosen 4E. For me, though both have flaws, 4E has less flaws than 3E does.

However, I do miss OGL.

Take a look and see if you can find the font of enlightenment where one self labeled 4e fan called those who prefer 3.X 'trogolodytes' - on a 3.X thread. And his choice of pulpit is at the root of the matter - he was standing there shouting the top of his pointy head off in a place where 3.X fans, myself included, would see him.

There may well be some 3.x idjets who behave in similar fashion on 4e threads - but I don't play 4e so I do not visit those threads. Because I read 3.X and 3.P threads, guess which 4e players I am more likely to encounter? The folks who are just sitting around the table, rollin' dice and killin' monsters 4e style are not the examples that I typically encounter, even though I have no doubt that they are the large majority.

So, I only see the one side of the argument, and that from those I am least likely to appreciate. I do not encounter the 3e players who behave in like fashion, since they are off shouting at the top of their pointy little heads in another room.

Those of you who play 4e, and enjoy the game, go ahead and enjoy it - that is what games are for. 3e players need to do the same, let them enjoy their game. If you don't like Monopoly, do not stand on the table and shout Monopoly sucks! Chutes and Ladders FOREVER! while crushing Park Place under your heel of game superiority.

And those who like Clue? You may have great taste in games, but leave the Hi Ho Cherry-O players alone. Those little plastic cherries have range!

The Auld Grump

 

[billd91]

I didn't like New Coke, I don't like 4e, and I do agree it's a similar situation. It's not JUST the product itself, but the story that's built up around the product.

Indeed. The double-edged sword of product branding. Coke had been so successful at getting people to identify themselves as "Coke drinkers" that their attempt to change the product behind the brand ended up being a case of grabbing the tiger by the tail.

 

[N0Man]

I see it too, but I'm surprised at a 4e fan mentioning this.

I didn't like New Coke, I don't like 4e, and I do agree it's a similar situation. It's not JUST the product itself, but the story that's built up around the product.

Rather than proclaiming whether the faults were with the fans or the producers, I'll leave as coming down a matter of taste and a story that got built around that. Fluff is more powerful than crunch.

I don't see why it's strange for a 4E fan to mention this at all. The backlash with New Coke was primarily within certain demographic groups, and it really didn't seem to be so much about what it was actually changed into but more about how some consumers saw Coke as something that was sacred and important to their identity. New Coke wasn't bad, but it was different, and it made people uncomfortable.

I have absolutely no problem with people who prefer 3E. That's completely reasonable. I understand people wanting the OGL to continue, also understandable. I think D&D as a hobby in general, regardless of the flavor, is worth supporting and sharing.

However, what I truly don't understand are the people who have so much hate for 4E that they treat it with utter contempt, say it's absolute garbage, that they'd like to commit acts of violence against the designers, burn and defecate on the game books, and spit on the players of the game, and would rather vomit than play. Those who disagree are generalized as kiddies or people who brainwashed by marketing. These aren't exaggerations, I've heard *all* of these exact statements said about 4E and players.

Regardless of what your preferences are, there is absolutely no rational basis for these kinds of statements. To me, this isn't criticism, these are psychological issues... It's completely irrational bias that is not grounded in any kind of reality. I can't take anyone who makes such statements as anything other than, at best a troll, and at worst a psycho.

I don't doubt there are some overzealous 4E players trolling some 3E forum out there. I haven't experienced it but I'm probably in the wrong forums for it.

Bottom line is that people need more acceptance of the taste of others, and need to realize that even something you don't prefer might have something of value within it.

WotC didn't polarize it's fanbase. The fanbase polarized the fanbase. The only thing that acting like pricks to one another accomplishes is shrinking the pools of potential people to play with even further, hurting the community, and probably chasing away a few curious players.

I've seen posts online where people who've never played before were curious about D&D and asked for suggestions of what they need to start. It broke into arguments about editions and bad advice that likely drove the person away.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

In this thread, one or two 4e fans believe that their side has never done anything wrong, and that the other side is filled with evil, murderous zealots that want to destroy them and everything they live.

Also, one or two 3e fans believe that their side has never done anything wrong, and that the other side is filled with evil, murderous zealots that want to destroy them and everything they live.

You people turn tabletop games into foreign politics :|

 

[N0Man]

In this thread, one or two 4e fans believe that their side has never done anything wrong, and that the other side is filled with evil, murderous zealots that want to destroy them and everything they live.

Also, one or two 3e fans believe that their side has never done anything wrong, and that the other side is filled with evil, murderous zealots that want to destroy them and everything they live.

You people turn tabletop games into foreign politics :|

Really? Where?

Since I'm the main person who has admitted to favoring 4E since your last post, I'm not sure if you are trying to group me as one of those 4E people or not... I stated already that I don't doubt there are some 4E zealots who take things too far. I also categorized the extremists on the 3E side as a minority, and gave examples of the most irrational behavior, not what is necessarily typical in this thread or even site or from 3E players as a whole.

My main argument was that actual edition hate, from my observation, seems to be centered on 3E players who feel that WotC slighted or abandoned them. 4E players feeling animosity towards the other edition is far less common than the the animosity towards 4E.

I'm also advocating that we all cut the BS and take D&D for D&D, play what we prefer and not insult others of different preferences.