3E & 4E Love and Hate Polls - What does it mean?

[ProfessorCirno]

My main argument was that actual edition hate, from my observation, seems to be centered on 3E players who feel that WotC slighted or abandoned them. 4E players feeling animosity towards the other edition is far less common than the the animosity towards 4E.

And I disagree.

Both sides think that the other side is the source of hate.

( Also you might want to edit out your opening statement where you say "it's been my experience that edition hate has been kind of one-sided" if you're now saying that both sides engage in it )

 

[N0Man]

And I disagree.

Both sides think that the other side is the source of hate.

( Also you might want to edit out your opening statement where you say "it's been my experience that edition hate has been kind of one-sided" if you're now saying that both sides engage in it )

I'm not sure you are interpreting what I'm saying as what I'm meaning to say. I'm not saying that there aren't players that are hateful and spiteful to eachother on both sides. I'm saying that the actual hatred for the *game* itself seems less from 4E players than 3E players.

That's something that was supported by one of the 3E players earlier, as he characterized 4E players as attacking 3E players and not the game, while stating 3E players attack the game more. I think he was putting a spin on it that I disagreed with, but I think that the basic facts are true and are consistent with my experience and observation.

It is also supported by the fact that initially the results of the poll (before they were votes were stuffed) showed that the number of players who supported one edition or the other weren't really that drastically far apart, however there were twice as many people who really disliked 4E as they did 3E. Again, there were 3E advocates that spun this to imply a conclusion that I disagreed with, but again the basic facts seemed to be consistent with my experience and observation.

I'm not claiming that the trolling is one sided, or that the arguments are one sided, or criticisms are one sided. Far from it.

What I am stating is that there is less reason for the feeling of hatred and bitterness towards 3E than there is of 4E. Many 3E players feel a sense of betrayal and abandonment, and feel like WotC ruined their game with the new edition. Not all of them are fighting edition wars (but sure, some are), but they do have an actual animosity towards 4E and WotC for making what they see as a flawed game presently.

However, there isn't really an analogous reason for people who played 3E originally and adopted 4E to feel a similar animosity. They might see the old system as dated or clunky, and there might be mechanics that they are irritated by and glad to be rid of, but it's far less likely to break down into outright animosity towards the game, and they are even less likely to feel animosity towards WotC for making what they think was a flawed game in the past!

So, my argument is not only based on the very argument that 2 3E advocates made previously in this thread, the pre-stuffed poll results, my personal experiences and observation, but also what is intuitively logical assesment of the social responses to this edition change.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Really? Where?

Since I'm the main person who has admitted to favoring 4E since your last post, I'm not sure if you are trying to group me as one of those 4E people or not... I stated already that I don't doubt there are some 4E zealots who take things too far. I also categorized the extremists on the 3E side as a minority, and gave examples of the most irrational behavior, not what is necessarily typical in this thread or even site or from 3E players as a whole.

My main argument was that actual edition hate, from my observation, seems to be centered on 3E players who feel that WotC slighted or abandoned them. 4E players feeling animosity towards the other edition is far less common than the the animosity towards 4E.

I'm also advocating that we all cut the BS and take D&D for D&D, play what we prefer and not insult others of different preferences.

As a quick counterpoint - As a 4e fan, how much time do you spend reading 3.X threads? As I admitted, my basis for comparison is inherently flawed by the fact that, having no interest in 4e threads, I do not read them, and so miss the virulent 4e haters that might be out there spouting venom in the name of 3e.

It is possible that your data is similarly distorted, though in the opposite manner. You hear the 4e haters, while I get to listen to folks claiming that my choice of game makes me a trogolodyte.

The Auld Grump, now the GSL I will stand on a soapbox, and spout vitriol upon....

 

[Hairfoot]

In case you're new to the internet, the number one reason for hacks of this nature are for epic lulz. 4chan hacked the MTV Europe poll a while back in order to make Rick Astley win "Best Act Ever" for epic lulz. Never underestimate the power of boredom.

You think 4chan did this? After Rickrolling MTV and trolling Oprah like pros, would /tg/ bother messing with a poll on ENworld?

I may have recently donned a Guy Fawkes mask to protest against a certain sci-fi church, and if I did (for, lo, that church is litigious) I can tell you that this is an unlikely scenario.

To me, it just looks like some mediocre hacker wannabe decided to incite a skirmish in the edition war, for grits and shiggles. Sadly, it looks like he succeeded

That's a strong possibility, but there are far more effective grenades to throw to achieve that. No, I think this is a deliberate attempt to misrepresent popular opinion.

You've made a comment about 4e fans:
…
And left it to stand on its own as though it applies to one group of fans but not the other.

It applies to the group of fans that hacked the poll. If you can show me where 3E has been boosted artificially in a poll, I’ll criticise that too.

You’re shadow boxing with the fans-versus-fans bit. I have no interest in that and haven’t brought it into the discussion. It’s your concern alone.

It is possible however, that people are so annoyed at the endless 4e bashing, that they have transferred this annoyance to 3e
…
Simple annoyance I would have thought. It's frustrating to keep hearing people denigrate something you like.

That’s a recurrent theme in your posts. Do you believe that hacking the poll is a legitimate response to criticism of 4E?

That's the only conclusion you can draw is it? Are you even trying to be objective?

Not the only one. Just the one that best fits the available evidence.

You’ll recall that I think it’s most likely an automated spam program, probably run by a single person, but we don’t know. It’s just as likely to be the result of a hundred 4E fans each registering five “love 4E”/”hate 3E” votes.

Oh please. 3e hate is minimal around here.

Other posters have addressed that statement and found it inaccurate.

So this "friend of yours", the one with too much ego invested in the popularity of the game... do you think he'll be ok?

I haven’t mentioned friends of mine, so, like the fan war thing, that’s entirely your own invention, with no quotation marks necessary. Also, the mods here tend to crack down on passive-aggressiveness, so try to keep your comments respectful.

You know, I thought it was bad when Hairfoot claimed there was some vast conspiracy against 3.5

Where? Where did I claim or, even imply, a conspiracy, vast or otherwise? If only there were enough tabletop gamers for a conspiracy to be possible!

No, I’ve said twice now that it’s probably a single loser at play, but we just don’t know. Even so, a broad swathe of anxious, would-be 4E boosters doesn’t make a conspiracy.

ENworld represents Dungeons & Dragons players from a range of ages, nations, editions and philosophies, but – on current evidence – fans of only one edition will go to the trouble of sabotaging polls to misrepresent its popularity.

It’s obtuse to deny the significance of this development. 4E bestrides the RPG market like a colossus and, if these boards are to be believed, is, objectively, the best roleplaying game ever published. But despite that popularity, some of its fans (and we know that the online community represents a far greater number) fear that it isn’t popular enough.

I only want to know what’s motivating all that anxiety.



EDIT: and 1000 posts.

 

[N0Man]

As a quick counterpoint - As a 4e fan, how much time do you spend reading 3.X threads? As I admitted, my basis for comparison is inherently flawed by the fact that, having no interest in 4e threads, I do not read them, and so miss the virulent 4e haters that might be out there spouting venom in the name of 3e.

It is possible that your data is similarly distorted, though in the opposite manner. You hear the 4e haters, while I get to listen to folks claiming that my choice of game makes me a trogolodyte.

The Auld Grump, now the GSL I will stand on a soapbox, and spout vitriol upon....

Actually, I used to follow 3E threads. The reason I stopped was because many 3E threads and forums were like little clubs where it was ok to bash 4E and 4E players. Sure I saw trolls on both sides, but the difference was that since you were on their turf, it was acceptable to take shots at 4E, while taking a shot at 3E was seen as trolling. Many times it was, though sometimes people were treated as trolls for offering a legitimate criticism... though the same is true for criticism lobbed at 4E in 4E forums.

As for the hate regarding the GSL, I can definitely understand disappointment, but again I don't understand the hate. People heap more hate on WotC for back pedaling on openness than they have for companies that never were open in the first place! If they had never had the OGL, then this contempt wouldn't exist. The hate is illogical from that perspective. It's like saying, "We hate you more than other companies because you are no longer doing what the most of the other companies didn't do in the first place!"

 

[N0Man]

YWhere? Where did I claim or, even imply, a conspiracy, vast or otherwise? If only there were enough tabletop gamers for a conspiracy to be possible!

Just ignore it. It's a conspiracy theory conspiracy theory. ;-)

 

[Umbran]

What I am stating is that there is less reason for the feeling of hatred and bitterness towards 3E than there is of 4E.

To carry on a bit from what Rel said - the Endless Edition War is not based on feelings of hatred and bitterness towards editions. It is based on how people have treated each other.

Initially, feelings towards the editions and the company were the basis for discussion, and then argument. But that turned into months on end of beating each other with rhetorical sticks. Fans betrayed each other, treated each other like dirt.

At this point, we are in solid "Hatfields and McCoys" territory - the anger is far more general, and persists whatever the discussion of specifics may be. Some of this is subtle. I'll use your own post as an example - I'm sorry if you find that annoying, but it is close to hand.

Do you realize that few things will get a person riled up like telling them their feelings are invalid? And here you are, trying to say that one side doesn't have as much reason to be upset - that their anger does not have a solid basis, and by implication the other guys do have reason.

How do you think that's going to make people feel? Suddenly, those people who have less reason to be bitter at the edition do have reason to be bitter about something else - your attempt to dismiss their feelings.

And thus, Wars are born.

 

[Herschel]

I see it too, but I'm surprised at a 4e fan mentioning this.

I didn't like New Coke, I don't like 4e, and I do agree it's a similar situation. It's not JUST the product itself, but the story that's built up around the product.

Rather than proclaiming whether the faults were with the fans or the producers, I'll leave as coming down a matter of taste and a story that got built around that. Fluff is more powerful than crunch.

Duuuuuude, old Coke tastes like an unholy mixture of battery acid and soap.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I think that Rel is the coolest moderator EVER!

And a snappy dresser to boot.

 

[N0Man]

To carry on a bit from what Rel said - the Endless Edition War is not based on feelings of hatred and bitterness towards editions. It is based on how people have treated each other.

Initially, feelings towards the editions and the company were the basis for discussion, and then argument. But that turned into months on end of beating each other with rhetorical sticks. Fans betrayed each other, treated each other like dirt.

At this point, we are in solid "Hatfields and McCoys" territory - the anger is far more general, and persists whatever the discussion of specifics may be. Some of this is subtle. I'll use your own post as an example - I'm sorry if you find that annoying, but it is close to hand.

Do you realize that few things will get a person riled up like telling them their feelings are invalid? And here you are, trying to say that one side doesn't have as much reason to be upset - that their anger does not have a solid basis, and by implication the other guys do have reason.

How do you think that's going to make people feel? Suddenly, those people who have less reason to be bitter at the edition do have reason to be bitter about something else - your attempt to dismiss their feelings.

And thus, Wars are born.

That's not really what I'm trying to say, and that might be my fault not being skilled enough in expressing myself clearly. I'm trying to separate the "edition war" and the animosity towards the respective editions. I think they are two different (albeit related) issues.

I agree that much of the warring has got to do with how people have treated eachother, and I'm not trying to say one side is better or worse in this regard. I really would like to see people be able to come to terms and be able to coexist peacefully without extreme contreversy, and it's not my attempt to fan any flames.

I'm not even trying to suggest that there aren't actual "3E Haters", though I've had no personal experience with them. I'm merely presenting the argument that completely seperated from the personal arguments and heated debates that have occurred in these edition wars, the actual honest hate and spite towards the actual game editions themselves (not towards other players) does seem heavily weighted to one side. In fact, I frequently see 3E supporters point this phenomon out as well, and use it to argue that it is proof that 4E is more flawed, because more people actually hate it than 3E.

Also, I wouldn't use the word invalid regarding their feelings, but I did say irrational. I completely stand by saying that the outright utter hatred and contempt is irrational. Being annoyed, dissapointed, or critical is completely understandable but much of the hate goes way beyond that. There is hatred and vitriol. It's not even really surprising, it's a common human reaction when something you value or tie to your own identity feels threatened. So on some level it's understandable, and I certainly wouldn't use the word "invalid", but that doesn't make it rational.

I am sure there are overzealous fans on both sides that really hate the other edition, and I'd consider them equally as irrational.

What I'm trying to say is put the actual edition war aside, and the squabbles of fans and who did what to who. Forget about that a moment and consider the question of which side logically would feel like they have more to lose by the introduction of a new edition. People who don't like the new edition, and who realize that their preferred edition will lose a great amount of future support, that their community will become fractured and they will lose potential players to the new edition, and feel like a game that they prized has been somehow insulted or injured. They are more naturally going to feel bitter towards the new edition and likely going to see it for even worse than it really is.

On the other hand, those who prefer the new edition don't have a reason to be threatened by the introduction of a new version. They might get overzealous and try to convert the players of the old version (because they want to play their version too), and they might get defensive from the attacks of those who hate their version, but there's not really an emotional investment that is being challenged by the introduction of a new version that would cause them to be very likely to have extreme hatred for the old version. It's more likely going to be a mild to moderate distaste, or maybe even mixed feelings. However, most of their hostility would be directed towards the supporters of the old system (and critics of the new system), not the edition itself, since that's not the actual threat.

That is what I mean by the actual *edition hate* being *mostly* one sided. It's not a defense or criticism of either side exactly, just more of an inevitable result of the way our minds work.

I'm not claiming that hostility of player to player has been one-sided.