Revisionist game publishing

[MrMyth]

So explain to me again why kobold PCs lack darkvision, when other kobolds have it, if it's not "balance."

Because it was in the MM, released when they were still feeling out the power of certain abilities, and felt limiting it was useful for balance - and if they were to write the rules for that race at the current point in time, with what they have learned in the interim, they would almost certainly give the kobold PCs darkvision.

Here's my question - what other examples of this PC/NPC dichotomy actually bug you? The kobold darkvision one was really the only one that got to me, since it changed a fundamental element of the race. But as mentioned - it is also something they probably wouldn't do now, and it was pretty much a solitary example.

Yes, lots of other monster races are different from the NPC/PC versions... in ways that are completely irrelevant to the core of the race itself. A PC minotaur feels like a minotaur, despite not operating identically to a minotaur monster.

So, are there any other cases that actually come to mind of this being a problem, or were kobolds it? Cause if so, I don't think you have anything to worry about, since that 'issue' will likely be fixed whenever they have an offical PC race.

 

[MrMyth]

So now every little kobold encampment will have to include a shaman if the little buggers want access to darkvision. This bass ackwards type of justification just makes more work for the DM.

Simpler answer- all kobolds have darkvision. End of problem.

New problem: DM doesn't want to permit PC races with darkvision.
Player: " Can I play a kobold?"
DM: " No"

End of problem.

So, as it currently stands, the only problem is requiring some minor justification on the DMs part when dealing with kobold camps, and/or just ignoring the issue unless someone asks about it.

You would prefer to replace this with the problem of creating DM/player conflict and actively hindering a player from using the character they want to play. Not because the DM doesn't want the player using kobolds, but because the DM doesn't want them having darkvision and finds it easier to shut down the player than risk possibly having to come up with some minor imaginative answer if the players ever come into conflict with other tribes of kobolds.

Yeah, great solution.

 

[Scribble]

I don't mind flavor added for its own sake but having to paint it over a lame justification such as game balance handed down from the corporate machine kind of stinks.

Huh...

Maybe that's the difference?

1. I don't see it as "having to" do anything... I just do. It's one of the reasons I really love reading the WW stuff- the little gaps in the story they leave make my brain wander. Same thing with rules like this... It doesn't feel like a chore, it's fun. Shrug.


I also don't have any notions of the evil corporation being responsible for an unwanted game balance.

I see game balance as a tool- it allows me, the DM (usually) to look at my campaign and watch for things that will cause issues. It's a baseline that I can start from and adjust as I see fit (to promote a good time at the table.)

When I see something like this X ability is not part of the PC version for game balance reasons I know that the designers are informing me that if the PC has this ability, in the "base level perfect situation" of the game it will be overly powerful, and possibly problematic. I can then make an informed decision about whether or not to allow it as a house rule.

 

[Woas]

Is it guaranteed that PC kobolds also have two arms and two legs? Or is that in the realm of NPC kobolds only?

 

[ExploderWizard]

So, as it currently stands, the only problem is requiring some minor justification on the DMs part when dealing with kobold camps, and/or just ignoring the issue unless someone asks about it.

You would prefer to replace this with the problem of creating DM/player conflict and actively hindering a player from using the character they want to play. Not because the DM doesn't want the player using kobolds, but because the DM doesn't want them having darkvision and finds it easier to shut down the player than risk possibly having to come up with some minor imaginative answer if the players ever come into conflict with other tribes of kobolds.

Yeah, great solution.

How is removing racial characteristics for PC use not hindering a player from using the character they want to play? As a player I would appreciate an up front "no" rather than have the DM say that I only get to wear a race X jumpsuit. As we all know, players never want to choose a race based on any abilities it might have.

So how is denying the player certain racial benefits not shutting them down without being up front about it?

I just love how "using your imagination" to support the dictates of a mechanics heavy system is acceptable but doing the same with a rules light system isn't good enough.

 

[Scribble]

So how is denying the player certain racial benefits not shutting them down without being up front about it?

They get other benefits Kobold NPCs don't get to compensate. Like healing surges and action points and stuff.

So if changes to the race to be PC friendly are problematic, would you rather just play a monster and be done with it? No PC abilities, just straight monster stats.

Or as someone stated above is it only a problem when they take one of your toys away?

I just love how "using your imagination" to support the dictates of a mechanics heavy system is acceptable but doing the same with a rules light system isn't good enough.

Who said that?

 

[catsclaw227]

So how is denying the player certain racial benefits not shutting them down without being up front about it?

I just love how "using your imagination" to support the dictates of a mechanics heavy system is acceptable but doing the same with a rules light system isn't good enough.

Maybe, as Scribble said, the way to handle a player wanting to play a kobold is to just let them do it.

Play a kobold, just like all the other kobold monsters out there. Get darkvision, shifty and all that cool stuff and then they'd be like all other kobolds out there. Because that's the issue right? They want to have all the kobold stuff that other kobolds get.

Great! Problem solved!

But... then then wouldn't get action points, surges, extra powers as they level (wait, do kobold monsters get to level?) and they won't have any feats.

So is it about being balanced with the world? Or balanced against the other PCs? Or is balance not a concern?

 

[MrMyth]

How is removing racial characteristics for PC use not hindering a player from using the character they want to play? As a player I would appreciate an up front "no" rather than have the DM say that I only get to wear a race X jumpsuit. As we all know, players never want to choose a race based on any abilities it might have.

So how is denying the player certain racial benefits not shutting them down without being up front about it?

Because they still get to play a balanced and unique race. Even if it is a limitation, it is still far better than being deprived of the class entirely. You say you, as a player, would rather be told 'no' than allowed to play a 'limited' version of a monster race. I'd say it is terrible DMing to then make that choice for your players, rather than let them choose whether they want the race or not.

Especially when there are other ways to resolve it if it is actually a problem. Like coming up with an in-character reason for it. Or just giving them the power, if it isn't game-breaking.

We seem to be stuck on the kobold-darkvision thing, despite it being clear that isn't likely to be an issue when the race gets its proper PC write-up. Does your opinion remain the same in other situations? Is it upsetting to play a PC Dragonborn who can only breath fire once a fight, rather than a monster dragonborn or dragon who have a rechargable breath weapon? Do you feel that is a reason to ban dragonborn from your game? Because I don't think that's a very good solution to me....

I just love how "using your imagination" to support the dictates of a mechanics heavy system is acceptable but doing the same with a rules light system isn't good enough.

I don't know what you are trying to say here.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Maybe, as Scribble said, the way to handle a player wanting to play a kobold is to just let them do it.

Play a kobold, just like all the other kobold monsters out there. Get darkvision, shifty and all that cool stuff and then they'd be like all other kobolds out there. Because that's the issue right? They want to have all the kobold stuff that other kobolds get.

Great! Problem solved!

But... then then wouldn't get action points, surges, extra powers as they level (wait, do kobold monsters get to level?) and they won't have any feats.

So is it about being balanced with the world? Or balanced against the other PCs? Or is balance not a concern?

The will be possible drawbacks to go with the benefits. Perhaps they take a penalty for operating in bright light?

Some monsters when played as a PC might not get a character class at all. Standard class selection/advancement is only a given for the races in the PHB or equivalent.

 

[Scribble]

Here's a question for you...

Do you feel it's wrong for say, The Invoker to have access to powers that the fighter doesn't, and vice versa?