Revisionist game publishing

[catsclaw227]

The will be possible drawbacks to go with the benefits. Perhaps they take a penalty for operating in bright light?

Some monsters when played as a PC might not get a character class at all. Standard class selection/advancement is only a given for the races in the PHB or equivalent.

Using your argument, though, kobolds don't get drawbacks for operating in bright light, why should the PC be gimped?

It's my opinion that until a PC race is written up that is balanced for play with other races, the players shouldn't be able to run with the MM entries. But that's just my opinion and I am sure that others want their game play different. That's cool with me.

The whole "minotaur without oversized is a minitaur" just doesn't make any sense in light of the arguments that are being placed regarding the PC write-ups vs the MM NPC writeups.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Here's a question for you...

Do you feel it's wrong for say, The Invoker to have access to powers that the fighter doesn't, and vice versa?

Nope.

Class and race are not equally interchangeable bags of abilities. A class is your job. A human is a human, he or she can get a new job if desired. Racial traits are inherent. A human does not swap out of humanity unless some kind of transformation (magical or otherwise) takes place.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Using your argument, though, kobolds don't get drawbacks for operating in bright light, why should the PC be gimped?

It's my opinion that until a PC race is written up that is balanced for play with other races, the players shouldn't be able to run with the MM entries. But that's just my opinion and I am sure that others want their game play different. That's cool with me.

The whole "minotaur without oversized is a minitaur" just doesn't make any sense in light of the arguments that are being placed regarding the PC write-ups vs the MM NPC writeups.

The bright light thing may or may not be true for a given campaign world. The point is that if such a thing does exist specifically as a racial trait then it applies to all members of that race.

Players shouldn't be able to just pick any MM race and use it simply because the writeup exists.The DM does need to use care in making the decision about allowable races and which ones will be acceptable.

 

[billd91]

It's my opinion that until a PC race is written up that is balanced for play with other races, the players shouldn't be able to run with the MM entries. But that's just my opinion and I am sure that others want their game play different. That's cool with me.

A major point of the thread is the objection to having different physical racial characteristics for the PC vs NPC version of a D&D critter in the first place. If you need to prune back the creature to make it PC-appropriate, what's the point of doing so? To hell with "say yes" in this case because it's really "yes (sort of)" and not a full yes anyway. Save the effort, the hemming and hawing, and just say no outright. Frankly, I'd prefer the clarity of minotaur rather than have NPC minotaurs and PC faux-minotaurs/ minitaurs/ ersatz-minotaurs/ whathaveyou.

 

[Scribble]

Nope.

Class and race are not equally interchangeable bags of abilities. A class is your job. A human is a human, he or she can get a new job if desired. Racial traits are inherent. A human does not swap out of humanity unless some kind of transformation (magical or otherwise) takes place.

Sure they are. It's a game we're talking about for one thing, but for another, there are plenty of class abilities, and feats and such that let you gain things that are also race features.

In the PHB lowlight vision is one feat that adds a racial ability for instance. A Dragonborn who takes Low Light vision... is no longer a Dragonborn? (None of the dragonborn in the MM have lowlight vision!)

Since the MM class/race combos don't have things like feats, you just let the monster have whatever powers are within the right power range, and "assume" it has all the necessary feats and such to do whatever you need it to.

So, since there are feats that enable a character to gain Darkvision...

You can't just assume that everything in a MM stat block you want is gained because of its race- It could very well be a class feature, or a feat, or a power.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

A major point of the thread is the objection to having different physical racial characteristics for the PC vs NPC version of a D&D critter in the first place. If you need to prune back the creature to make it PC-appropriate, what's the point of doing so? To hell with "say yes" in this case because it's really "yes (sort of)" and not a full yes anyway. Save the effort, the hemming and hawing, and just say no outright. Frankly, I'd prefer the clarity of minotaur rather than have NPC minotaurs and PC faux-minotaurs/ minitaurs/ ersatz-minotaurs/ whathaveyou.

There are no "unclassed" monsters in the Monster Manual. Or should I say there are no classed monsters?

Essentially, they all have special abilities, levels and all that. There is no "pure" or "base" Kobold without any of that, unlike it was in 4E. They always come with powers, roles and so on. It is not possible to distinguish between "nurture" and "nature" for a monsters abilities. It's only possible to identify "theme". Kobolds are evil shifty buggers living underground.

Wether I give them a Shift At Will Ability and Darkvision for that or not is not relevant to fill in the theme, just as it is unnecessary for the PC Kobold to be evil and live underground.

 

[Scribble]

I kind of look at monsters in the 4e MM as kind of a "snippet" of a full race/class combo. Like if you were to take a level human fighter and only show parts of his stat block.

Since he's only going to exist somewhat briefly, and the numbers work you really don't need the extra info a full class writeup would show you.

A level three Kobold Wyrmpriest has darkvision because of some combination of powers/features/feats a level 3 Kobold Wyrmpriest gets.

 

[ExploderWizard]

You can't just assume that everything in a MM stat block you want is gained because of its race- It could very well be a class feature, or a feat, or a power.

I never mentioned such a thing.

The point is that if such a thing does exist specifically as a racial trait then it applies to all members of that race.

Boldface in the event it was missed earlier.

Lets say a beastie has a natural attack that is rather nasty. If the attack is a function of its class/role, being a brute for example, then there is no reason to conclude that such an ability is a racial trait and a player would then have to play a brute to gain such an ability as opposed to a member of that race.

Of course in a game where you can change your race with a feat ( and even untrain it later) there isn't much of a game world to worry about anyway.

 

[keterys]

Out of curiosity. If kobolds have access to a feat to upgrade from low light to darkvision, does that make it still horrible that don't have darkvision or not, cause they could, and all the kobolds in the mm might have taken it?

Though I still wish people would stop arguing about race stat blocks that were never intended to be used for PCs. Though the minotaur example is the best one, where the published minotaurs don't even use oversized weapons, yet the PC version is a 'minitaur' somehow.

 

[Scribble]

I never mentioned such a thing.

The point is that if such a thing does exist specifically as a racial trait then it applies to all members of that race.

Boldface in the event it was missed earlier.

Lets say a beastie has a natural attack that is rather nasty. If the attack is a function of its class/role, being a brute for example, then there is no reason to conclude that such an ability is a racial trait and a player would then have to play a brute to gain such an ability as opposed to a member of that race.

Of course in a game where you can change your race with a feat ( and even untrain it later) there isn't much of a game world to worry about anyway.

Where does it say it exists as a racial trait?

(And also I disagrees in principle to your it exists in all members of that race mantra. As I said earlier, I have a friend who is colorblind... yet we still consider him human. )