Falling off the 4ed bandwagon

[Dausuul]

I have a sudden impulse to start roleplaying my chess pieces.

But then my pawns are going to start having arguments with my king when he orders them to sacrifice themselves, and the bishops will take the pawns' side while the knights make dismissive comments about revolting peasants, and once the queen starts yelling "OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!" it'll all go downhill fast.

 

[Obryn]

I understand people get emotionally invested with their characters/campaigns, but 4e (or any gaming system) doesn't need people to defend it. It's not a person, its feelings won't get hurt.
It's called-for because that's what he believes. If you disagree with his assertions and want to make him see the error of his ways, then show him with a positive argument in support of your views. Telling him his opinions are uncalled for is uncalled for.

It's not about opinions or beliefs. It's about productive versus unproductive statements. We can hold different opinions all day, and as long as we're making productive statements, we won't get into edition wars or useless squabbling.

"So you hack your way into and out of everything" isn't a statement that lends itself to a good discussion. It's dismissive, and dismissive posts are a quick way to kill an otherwise-solid discussion.

IMO, it's better to call out unproductive statements and try to keep the conversation on a strong footing, than engage with them. Heaven knows I'm perfectly happy to debate merits and flaws - I've been doing it this whole thread. (EDIT: And yeah, I could have ignored it, but I was responding to his other points as well.)

-O

 

[Chrono22]

Okay, to be more specific: "Showing people the error of their ways," even with the best intentions, when the subject is something like "[In 4E] you hack your way in and hack your way out of just about everything," is how edition wars start.

My above points were mostly sarcastic. I actually think edition wars start when people approach the subject from an emotional and personal mindset. To a person with this way of thinking, an "attack" on his edition is perceived as an attack on himself because he associate themselves with the edition on a personal level. When he thinks of his edition, he thinks of the good times he's had with it. Any kind of (positive or negative) normative statement about his game is seen as either a validation or invalidation of his own experiences.
So, don't take anything anyone says personally. It's a game, you can't hurt its feelings. If you find yourself getting upset at what another poster says, and you start to respond to "defend" your edition- what are you defending? The edition or your own feelings? If it's the former, it doesn't need your help. If it's the latter, you are taking things too personally.

Edit: and taking anything on this forum as being a productive statement is a stretch at best.

 

[keterys]

I have a sudden impulse to start roleplaying my chess pieces.

But then my pawns are going to start having arguments with my king when he orders them to sacrifice themselves, and the bishops will take the pawns' side while the knights make dismissive comments about revolting peasants, and once the queen starts yelling "OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!" it'll all go downhill fast.

True. Might be easier to go for a more Harry Potter Chess RP scene. Or History of the World.

Somehow, I suspect those might be very different gaming groups. Very different.

 

[Dausuul]

My experience is that edition wars (and flame wars in general) result from Poster A having one opinion, and Poster B having the opposite opinion, and each poster growing increasingly frustrated with his inability to persuade the other that he is obviously in the wrong:

Poster A: AD&D is an Everquest clone.
Poster B: No, it isn't. For one thing, it's 1979 and Everquest hasn't been invented yet.
Poster A: The similarities are obvious, though. They both have hit points and elves.
Poster B: That's irrelevant. Everquest isn't going to exist for a couple decades, so nothing can be a clone of it.
Poster A: Your point is invalidated by the fact that we're talking about it. This is a hypothetical conversation, so anything's possible.
Poster B: Look, if you can't understand that it's impossible to clone something that doesn't exist yet, you just don't grasp how time works.
Poster A: Your statement that I don't grasp how time works is pretty dumb considering you posted it on the Web from 1979.
Poster B: This is idiotic. You don't have a clue what you're talking about.
Poster A: That's rich. The clueless one here is clearly you.
Poster B: Violator of causality!
Poster A: Anachronistic fool!
Mod: Folks, stop messing with the space-time continuum. This thread is closed.

 

[Raven Crowking]

My experience is that edition wars (and flame wars in general) result from Poster A having one opinion, and Poster B having the opposite opinion, and each poster growing increasingly frustrated with his inability to persuade the other that he is obviously in the wrong.

Agreed. And more often because neither poster holds his or her opinion strongly enough to be able to simply ignore the other. The poster who is sure X is not for him, or is sure that X is for her, isn't the poster who is engaged in edition wars. The poster who is trying desperately to convince himself or herself is. IMHO and IM (firsthand) E.

OTOH, the mods are the only "communications police" on EN World. If they do not believe the OP is in violation of The Rules, wouldn't it be better to either ignore the post or try to discuss in a non-confrontational manner?

(And yes, pot meets kettle here, but a recent conversation with Umbran convinced me that he was right about this.)

RC

 

[Dausuul]

OTOH, the mods are the only "communications police" on EN World. If they do not believe the OP is in violation of The Rules, wouldn't it be better to either ignore the post or try to discuss in a non-confrontational manner?

(And yes, pot meets kettle here, but a recent conversation with Umbran convinced me that he was right about this.)

Fair enough. I think we're sliding into a war over whether this is an edition war.

Anyone got anything further on the original topic?

 

[Raven Crowking]

Mod: Folks, stop messing with the space-time continuum. This thread is closed.

This is seriously funny, though. I've got to give you some XP when my ability to do so refreshes!

RC

 

[Dark Mistress]

Ok I didn't read this whole thread. To the OP I would suggest trying a few games and finding the one that comes closest to doing what you want. Odds are high you will never find the perfect RPG, you sound like me. A tinker someone that loves to tinker with the rules and adjust them to do things we want to do.

For me that has turned out to be Pathfinder, only because it comes closer with less work than any other. I love Rolemaster I really do but I utterly hate the magic system so much so that to play RM I have to completely gut and replace the magic system and thats a ton of work. I have played a variety of other games and DnD editions from basic boxed set ODnD to AD&D, 2e, 3e, 3.5e, 4e, PFRPG, Conan and a host of other D20 variations.

Right now as I already stated I found the system that comes closest to what I want out of a game system with the least amount of work on my part to get there.

So i think thats what you need to do, go play everything you can get your hands on for awhile each till you find the one that gets closest to what you want and then house rule the rest.

Good luck on finding your system.

 

[nedjer]

Ok I didn't read this whole thread. To the OP I would suggest trying a few games and finding the one that comes closest to doing what you want. Odds are high you will never find the perfect RPG, you sound like me. A tinker someone that loves to tinker with the rules and adjust them to do things we want to do.

For me that has turned out to be Pathfinder, only because it comes closer with less work than any other. I love Rolemaster I really do but I utterly hate the magic system so much so that to play RM I have to completely gut and replace the magic system and thats a ton of work. I have played a variety of other games and DnD editions from basic boxed set ODnD to AD&D, 2e, 3e, 3.5e, 4e, PFRPG, Conan and a host of other D20 variations.

Right now as I already stated I found the system that comes closest to what I want out of a game system with the least amount of work on my part to get there.

So i think thats what you need to do, go play everything you can get your hands on for awhile each till you find the one that gets closest to what you want and then house rule the rest.

Good luck on finding your system.

A post that says 'this what I like about my system' instead of twisting my arm up my back and saying, 'the gnomes' noses aren't pointy enough in your game.'