Was AD&D1 designed for game balance?

[Garmorn]

No, he is in the middle of explaining the spirit of the rules. The thing which, repeatedly, he admonishes the DM to consider as more important than hard and fast rules.

I have to admit that I find your position here more than a little strange.
RC

RC, is that what he was tying to do? He only confused and bored me. I skipped any thing that was not a clear rule because of his tendency to use pose in stead of the more established and for me any technical approach. I had the same problem with him as I do with you. We seem to think and write very differently.

For example your response to my last post. I thought it was clear I really was confused. It seemed different to you.

Most of my problems with 1e is the gaming style and Gygax's approach to what makes a good game. I will admit I did not play it often.

(I am reading this thread to learn. 20 years ago I had completely different take and experience you what you people had. I for a long considered Gygax over pretentious.)

 

[Ariosto]

If the goal is saving the princess ...

then the princess is the loot. That's simple and flexible, eh?

"But what if my character has no interest in wealth?" Can you say "corner case"? Why has he or she any interest in "gaining levels"? That's pursuit of power, and wealth is power. Why should his or her other interests be the cause of gaining levels?

The treasure-score method works very neatly to give the game a clear structure, and is thematically in keeping with the main fictional inspirations. It neither dictates methodologies nor requires action-by-action bookkeeping as do some alternatives; the summed value of actions is elegantly indicated in the value of treasure secured! It does not set up risk as reward, as may happen when "bypassing an encounter" (a trap, monster or other dangerous obstacle) gets penalized. It does penalize aimless wandering that uses up resources. It facilitates players' assessment of objectives in quantified terms even in character.

Some of those features may be flaws in some eyes. A DM who wants to take players out of the loop, for instance, might prefer hidden values to the open token. That loop of information and choice, though, is fundamental to the game Gygax was designing.

 

[Garthanos]

The treasure-score method works very neatly to give the game a clear structure, and is thematically in keeping with the main fictional inspirations..

Seems a thematic bust with the Baggins boys and Elric of Melnibone.. And I think quite a few others.

 

[Ariosto]

It worked nicely in terms of getting treasure back out of the PCs hands and into the campaign world.

As it did in Blackmoor -- as described in Dave Arneson's The First Fantasy Campaign.

It was just a useful little rule of thumb so that I could judge what age a particular noble or peasant should be for his level.

Going the other way -- assuming that all characters have classes and levels in the first place -- would be quite a departure from Original and Advanced D&D assumptions. Of course, the Judges Guild tended to do just that (famously in the City State of the Invincible Overlord) to sometimes bizarre effect.

 

[Ariosto]

Seems a thematic bust with the Baggins boys and Elric of Melnibone.. And I think quite a few others.

Does not look so to me. Bilbo was hired for an expedition to get Smaug's gold, and picked up a certain magical Ring along the way -- then he retired! Frodo was (or so the man said) not much of an inspiration to Gygax, but his evident rise in level seems hardly unwarranted by the value of his contribution to defeating Morgoth's lieutenant Sauron and thereby saving all the capital of the Free Peoples from the Evil One and his armies. Elric? He obtained Stormbringer, led the sack of Imryrr, and went on, variously as mercenary and pawn, to serve the ends of Chaos as regarded the entirety of one of the Million Spheres.

In each case, the character in question was the fulcrum of issues concerning kingdoms (at the least!). Farting about the farm, or continual petty murders of vagrants by a likewise no-account thug, are hardly the stuff of the high sword-and-sorcery adventure Arneson and Gygax had in mind.

 

[Garthanos]

then the princess is the loot. That's simple and flexible, eh?

could indeed be.. or she rewards you after you rescue her... does she use gold or other things to reward you with... do they need translated in to gold value to give experience points?

"But what if my character has no interest in wealth?" Can you say "corner case"? Why has he or she any interest in "gaining levels"? That's pursuit of power, and wealth is power.
Why should his or her other interests be the cause of gaining levels?

Wealth is "a form" of power not the only form nor necessarily what any given power mongering character is interested in.... becoming skilled (see god bent wizards) is its own form of goal and not necessarily so corner case.

levels as skill makes sense that time "may" be used as a increment for gain. But where a component of "levels" are heroic luck even more than skill perhaps nothing ummm needs to make sense.

The treasure-score method works very neatly to give the game a clear structure, and is thematically in keeping with the main fictional inspirations.

Bilbo saw the treasure as an after bonus to the adventure itself, Frodo.. said what treasure.. and Elric said oh I walked away from more of that than you can imagine....

It neither dictates methodologies nor requires action-by-action bookkeeping as do some alternatives;

action by action book-keeping has some real negatives... though in most cases it is used to advance action by action competence.

 

[Votan]

Seems a thematic bust with the Baggins boys and Elric of Melnibone.. And I think quite a few others.

Actually, I like the Baggins example; both Bilbo and Frodo either gave away or destroyed a fair amount of wealth. Especially Bilbo (although the one ring was clearly not without value). If you gave XP for disposing of wealth, Bilbo was a pure XP play example.

Even if not, both gained many important treasures that were major points.

As for Elric, Stormbringer was clearly valuable and he did help sack is home city.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I truly believe that the InterWeb skews communication. Five minutes in a pub clears up more problems -- and gets more across clearly -- than 500 posts. On average, anyway!

Seems a thematic bust with the Baggins boys and Elric of Melnibone.. And I think quite a few others.

Sure. 1e is not a perfect game, and it is not perfect for emulating all types of play.


RC

 

[Garthanos]

Farting about the farm, or continual petty murders of vagrants by a likewise no-account thug, are hardly the stuff of the high sword-and-sorcery adventure Arneson and Gygax had in mind.

Yeah and so what does that have to do with gold giving you skill.

 

[MerricB]

So, despite obviously being aware of what is written in the MM, and despite obviously being aware that this was going to be seen by some as a contradiction in the rules, you feel that Gygax wasn't aware of what was written in the MM and didn't intend the advice in the DMG to take precedence over that in the MM?

Obvious?

When it comes to AD&D, the game that is described in the books is not the game that Gary had been playing. It, however, contains much that he had been using for several years. The Treasure Type tables debuted in the original release of D&D, where there was no advice given as to their use - thus, the vorpal swords for 1st level characters and such.

So, I take it as given that Gary was aware of the Treasure Tables, but not of the advice that he wrote in the MM about their use. The basic advice - being small groups of monsters have less treasure - is identical. The point that differs is whether he meant the treasure to work for the mean or maximum, and, honestly, comes down more to personal preference.

The treasure tables tend to be of far more use in wilderness and lair encounters rather than dungeon encounters, where the monsters rarely appear in such numbers as given in the MM! So, nice though they are, they tend to be of more limited usefulness that you might immediately think.

Consider then the random dungeon tables and their own treasure tables... It is interesting to note that their was treasure by level tables in the original D&D books, and they migrated over to Basic D&D, but not directly to AD&D. My assumption is that Gary thought (by this point) that the random dungeon tables provided that material.

Cheers!