Stuff I want (From you 3pp People)

[buddhafrog]

Thanks for the inputs so far, guys. If I can come up with enough good ideas, I might do up a more specialized pdf. Otherwise, I think it might be better to focus on short, delve-style encounters which may include some of these individual elements (although they would not be the selling point), at least for a start.

Maybe I misunderstood you. If you are suggesting putting together a .pdf like Dungeon Delve but generally *not* in dungeon settings, and then include in each *short* encounter a handful of brief NPC's/basic motive, fantastic terrains, etc, then I very well would consider buying it. Ideally I'd like these in different .pdf's. However, if many of these encounters were collected together, I'd certainly consider it. I thought you were suggesting doing *one* short encounter, which is just basically a mini-adventure.

If there were several together (i.e. Dungeon Delve), I would love them to be quite short and organized differently, possibly so it could be easily referenced to find the NPC's, fantastic terrains, monster lairs, etc -- instead of having to read through each encounter to find them individually. I don't know if this is making sense, and if so, if it could be easily enough designed. Right now, I tend to read through tons of (rather weak) pre-made adventures to find an encounter here, a terrain there, an NPC I like there, etc, and steal parts of ones I like and tweak them to my likeing. Dungeon Delve is more helpful than most just b/c it is short. However, I'm really not interested in more dungeons. ugh.... Also, they are written to drop into campaigns rather than pulling and using individual pieces. Writing it in such a way to make it a little easier to use the individual pieces would be greatly helpful.

I'm a new DM, so my needs/experience are likely different than most on these boards.

 

[catastrophic]

What's funny is that you think this stuff would be interesting to write. All this stuff is boring. A book of minor NPCs? A book of patrons requiring some small task performed? A book of skill challenges with no context? Please. People want to write stuff that is memorable. You are asking for books full of filler. I understand. You need help filling in the filler sections. But a book totally lacking in the whiz bang stuff is hard on a writer's soul.

If the writer isn't motivated to write it, you end up with no product (or lousy product). And on top of that this stuff is targeted at the DMs. So you are basically writing off 4/5s of the total audience. This stuff would sell? Not a lot.

If someone wants to come along and prove me wrong, more power to you. But I don't think anyone will. Sorry.

How much proof would you need? I'm (slowly) working up to 3pp again (after making the classic mistake of this market) and I fully intend to create a product like the kind being described in this thread- what's more, i'm confident that i'd enjoy doing it, and i've enjoyed the bits and pieces i've done so far.

I also dispute your argument about sales. Sure, sales are low. But targeting DMs might still work better than other things people have tried, particularly if the product has stats for multiple systems.

Sales can hardly get any worse using this approach, and they might even get better, especially if people were willing to accept a workable price point for such products.

 

[kenmarable]

How much proof would you need? I'm (slowly) working up to 3pp again (after making the classic mistake of this market) and I fully intend to create a product like the kind being described in this thread- what's more, i'm confident that i'd enjoy doing it, and i've enjoyed the bits and pieces i've done so far.

I also dispute your argument about sales. Sure, sales are low. But targeting DMs might still work better than other things people have tried, particularly if the product has stats for multiple systems.

Sales can hardly get any worse using this approach, and they might even get better, especially if people were willing to accept a workable price point for such products.

Don't worry about the "writing for DMs ignores 4/5 of the potential customers" stuff. What little sales and research data has been given out clearly show that DMs on average spend far more than players, not to mention a non-trivial number of groups have more than 1 DM over time.

So unless your product is "Player's Handbook" (optionally with a number after it), focusing on players rather than DMs won't increase your revenue 5 times. Might do a little better with player focus (I think the Dragon print mag circulation numbers were always higher than Dungeon, but not by such an amount that Dungeon wasn't still profitable), but DM-focused products are needed and do sell.

So if you are interested and enjoy the time (and other resources) you put into it, do it. That trumps everything else.

 

[kenmarable]

But, just to conduct some informal market research (and to help me pick my next project), how many of you would be interested in a short pdf (say about 5 pages of actual content, not including the cover, legal stuff, etc.) with a few modular elements, e.g. a magic item that WotC can't publish, one new type of fantastic terrain, a skill-based challenge (not necessarily a by-the-book skill challenge), a combat encounter with an objective other than "kill them all" and tied together into a delve-like format?

If and only if it had an interesting concept tying it together. A PDF of "hey, here's some stuff you can use, and we put it together in a possible encounter" causes my eyes to glaze over, even if the pieces would be interesting. However, a PDF of "here's a place where the shadow world bleeds into reality where your own shadows can affect the world as much as you can, oh and here's some interesting bits that can be used in this encounter or others".

If the "elevator pitch" is a great concept and there's useful material, I'm there. Just useful bits and pieces isn't enough to get me to look deeper.

Well personally I would rather see them broken out into different books...

Like a book filled with fantastic terrain would be better for me then a book with 5 different things in it (even if it was a series.)

I would much rather have a "go to" book for fantastic terrain, a go to book for skill challenges, and a go to book for minor quests. Kind of like how the MM is my go to book for monsters.

I could go for this as well, if there were enough, and it was by a decent designer. I haven't really been too keen on the general open call, dozens of authors of varying skill, no cohesive planning (i.e. making sure there is a range of certain types as opposed to just a big collection of whatever was submitted). Although, I'll admit to being hypocritical or at least mercenary in that I've submitted to those kinds of books in the past.

 

[kenmarable]

As for general fluff, the GSL makes it possible for WotC to steal your fluff. So any fluff combined with the GSL will only be of the sort that the producer thinks isn't worth stealing. "Hey, buy this book full of fluff that isn't worth stealing" is not a good marketing plan.

Sorry, this is off track, but BWHUH??!

I'll just say that this is one interpretation of the license, and an interpretation that I doubt most if not all of the current GSL licensees disagree with. I know I plan on releasing some products later this year under the GSL and I certainly have no fear of this.

Potential publishers, read the GSL yourself and decide what you think. Don't take either of our opinions as fact.


So, Joe, what 4e products would you like to see from 3pp?

P.S. And sorry for 3 posts in a row. Just getting caught up on the thread and they seemed like separate enough thoughts to warrant separate posts.

 

[SabreCat]

Oddly enough, the Monster Builder makes third-party monster books more usable for me. I can punch in the details and have them ready to go in standard format when desired (especially when used in conjunction with fan tools like this one - http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4th-edition-rules/269535-dm-monster-library-encounter-builder.html )... So keep making Critter Caches and the like ^.^

 

[jmucchiello]

So, Joe, what 4e products would you like to see from 3pp?

Well, what I'd like to WRITE, I can't because of the GSL. I'd like to update my Before Level One book for 4e. Characters in 4e start as Heroes. My Before Level One book would provide for gaming at the fresh off the farm level that 4e doesn't handle.

I'm also still waiting for non-fantasy 4e stuff. But since people aren't making class/race books, this just isn't happening.

I want alternate magic systems. Classes with alternative power structures. 4e is very cookie cutter and the GSL ensures that it stays that way. There's no innovation. WotC has made changes to the way some powers "violate" the given power structure. Are those changes in GSL? Can anyone else do that? What little innovation there is cannot come from 3pps.

4e would be a better game if more people could play with its rules. But they can't. If you look at how 3e evolved, with branch products like d20 Modern, Monte's Arcane Unearthed, Mearles' Iron Heroes, Mutants and Masterminds, WotC's Bo9S, Elements of Magic, Pathfinder, Trailblazer, etc. you can see how it became 4e. These products took the existing framework and said "Look what else d20 can do!" The GSL slammed the door on that kind of innovation. Only WotC can trickle out changes to "Look at what 4e can do." And that is sad. Can you conceive of all the ideas not imagined for 4e? That is what I want to see from 3pp. That is why some side-adventure delves, some minor NPCs with insignificant quests, some new terrains just do not, cannot and will not excite me. They are trifles. Sure, someone could do them well. They could be the Norman Rockwell of RPG products. I want Salvador Dali.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Products I would be REALLY interested in...

1. Some pre-painted yet affordable "Dungeon Dressing" mini sets. Treasure chests, tables, chairs, bookcases, beds, etc. I don't need actual walls and floors, but it would be handy to introduce a third dimension into combat.

1.5. A solution to make minis that fly stand above the terrain that doesn't include placing them on empty die cubes or hourglass timers stolen from party games.

2. A supplement detailing the creation and running of an organization from a crunchy perspective. Our campaign revolves around building up a tower in Hill's Edge dedicated to Torm. It would be nice to have a "game within a game" to play pitting our organization against the others both in Hill's Edge and worldwide.

3. A supplement for mass battles. Preferable one that treats units in a similar way as it does characters currently. Integrate this with the rules for the organizations.

4. Something akin to AleaTools but reasonably priced. Instead of using expensive magnets to stick the discs together, just go with the "checker edge" grooves which work fine and cost a lost less. Also sells me some stickers to put around the side of the marker so it actually says "DAZED" or "BLOOODIED" or whatever.

DS

 

[catastrophic]

Sabathius, you should check out Hard Boiled Armies if you're not already familiar with it. And I'm sure I remember somebody was selling clear plastic altitude thingies for flying miniatures at some point.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Has anyone created a Sandbox world so that someone could run a "West Marches" game 4E style?