Stuff I want (From you 3pp People)

[jmucchiello]

I'll echo that I'd love to see an awesome campaign setting.

...with no crunch to support it. What would make the setting awesome if it is just yet another place with paladins and fighters and rogues and wizards and on and on? I can see many ways to make this "interesting". But awesome? Awesome probably requires some limits on classes, modifications to races, etc. And the GSL doesn't allow you to leave stuff out. And the CB doesn't encourage that either.

I know you went on the say new classes are okay. But the majority of the posters in the thread say 'nay'.

I wouldn't mind something along the lines of "Unearthed Arcana"... lots of alternative mechanics that could really break the system. I personally don't care much about perfect game balance and don't mind experimenting with mechanics.

Can't happen. The GSL forbids you from redefining existing game terms. What is "alternate mechanics" but redefined existing terms?

What's funny is that this stuff isn't hard, necessarily. We in this thread are saying "book", but a 10, 20 page PDF would suit some folks needs here, in this department. It'd sell.

What's funny is that you think this stuff would be interesting to write. All this stuff is boring. A book of minor NPCs? A book of patrons requiring some small task performed? A book of skill challenges with no context? Please. People want to write stuff that is memorable. You are asking for books full of filler. I understand. You need help filling in the filler sections. But a book totally lacking in the whiz bang stuff is hard on a writer's soul.

If the writer isn't motivated to write it, you end up with no product (or lousy product). And on top of that this stuff is targeted at the DMs. So you are basically writing off 4/5s of the total audience. This stuff would sell? Not a lot.

If someone wants to come along and prove me wrong, more power to you. But I don't think anyone will. Sorry.

 

[Rechan]

If the writer isn't motivated to write it, you end up with no product (or lousy product). And on top of that this stuff is targeted at the DMs. So you are basically writing off 4/5s of the total audience. This stuff would sell? Not a lot.

One could take the Asgard route. The Book of Rituals was pretty much "Hey you guys, submit rituals to us and if we like'm well put 'em in the book". A book of NPCs or Skill Challenges would be so easily done this way.

I personally would love it if Piratecat wrote all his skill challenge ideas down and submitted them. I'd pay him if I could.

 

[jmucchiello]

I personally would love it if Piratecat wrote all his skill challenge ideas down and submitted them. I'd pay him if I could.

I can't speak for PC (obviously). But there is a difference between throwing some skill challenge ideas up on a forum thread and writing up skill challenges for a product you intend to sell. PC knows he could turn them into a product with more effort. But he didn't make the effort. Why? Could be a lot of reasons. I speculate that he does not perceive the benefit as being worth his time. I could be way off base. But unless he pops in and says why my speculation will follow the thinking I put into my original post above.

 

[Scribble]

...with no crunch to support it. What would make the setting awesome if it is just yet another place with paladins and fighters and rogues and wizards and on and on? I can see many ways to make this "interesting". But awesome? Awesome probably requires some limits on classes, modifications to races, etc. And the GSL doesn't allow you to leave stuff out. And the CB doesn't encourage that either.

I know you went on the say new classes are okay. But the majority of the posters in the thread say 'nay'.

The flavor. Like I said earlier, I set my 3e campaign in the scarred lands, but we used pretty much none of the crunch. It wasn't the various prcs and new classes and stuff that drew me to the scarred lands. It was the story behind the setting. It inspired my game, and made me think of a ton of different things that could be happening in the world- I still used a lot of the setting material in my 4e game.

I bet you if you were to talk to the 4e players out there there would be a lot like me. We don't want or need the crunch to dictate the flavor. We want good flavor for the good crunch we already have.

What's funny is that you think this stuff would be interesting to write. All this stuff is boring. A book of minor NPCs? A book of patrons requiring some small task performed? A book of skill challenges with no context? Please. People want to write stuff that is memorable. You are asking for books full of filler. I understand. You need help filling in the filler sections. But a book totally lacking in the whiz bang stuff is hard on a writer's soul.

I'm telling you if you want me to give you money here is a way you can have me do so... and you tell me it's to "hard on a writer's soul?"

And writing umpteen books with new feats/prcs/spells is different in some way?

This stuff would sell? Not a lot.

If someone wants to come along and prove me wrong, more power to you. But I don't think anyone will. Sorry.

Personally I don't believe 4e is "bad" for 3pp, I feel it's just different. You can't take what was popular in 3e and apply it to 4e. It's not the same game it has different wants and different needs, and YES I do believe this stuff would sell, because I want to buy it, and I really don't believe I'm way different then the majority of gamers out there.



3pp if you want my money, make these products, and products along these lines. If you don't want my money... do something else I guess, but please don't continue to declare 4e people don't want/need 3pp products.

 

[Fifth Element]

What's funny is that you think this stuff would be interesting to write. All this stuff is boring.

I find this to be an odd response.

Customer: "I would buy this if you wrote it."
Publisher: "That's boring. I like writing about that."
Customer: "But I have no use for that. I want this."
Publisher: "Oh well."

There does seem to be a shift here. In the 3.X era most 3pp stuff was for the players, which makes sense. The demand for that in 4E is greatly reduced, however. Publishers probably need to shift their focus. Some of them won't be able to, and that's fine. But the ones who do might be able to thrive in the new 3pp environment.

 

[FireLance]

Are there any 3PP representatives reading this thread? Taking note?

Yes, and yes.

Unfortunately, what I'm currently working on is Yet Another Suite of Player Options, not because I think it will sell well, but because it is what I want to do.

Boneheaded business decisions like this are why I'm not quitting my day job.

But, just to conduct some informal market research (and to help me pick my next project), how many of you would be interested in a short pdf (say about 5 pages of actual content, not including the cover, legal stuff, etc.) with a few modular elements, e.g. a magic item that WotC can't publish, one new type of fantastic terrain, a skill-based challenge (not necessarily a by-the-book skill challenge), a combat encounter with an objective other than "kill them all" and tied together into a delve-like format?

 

[Scribble]

Yes, and yes.

Unfortunately, what I'm currently working on is Yet Another Suite of Player Options, not because I think it will sell well, but because it is what I want to do.

Boneheaded business decisions like this are why I'm not quitting my day job.

But, just to conduct some informal market research (and to help me pick my next project), how many of you would be interested in a short pdf (say about 5 pages of actual content, not including the cover, legal stuff, etc.) with a few modular elements, e.g. a magic item that WotC can't publish, one new type of fantastic terrain, a skill-based challenge (not necessarily a by-the-book skill challenge), a combat encounter with an objective other than "kill them all" and tied together into a delve-like format?

Well personally I would rather see them broken out into different books...

Like a book filled with fantastic terrain would be better for me then a book with 5 different things in it (even if it was a series.)

I would much rather have a "go to" book for fantastic terrain, a go to book for skill challenges, and a go to book for minor quests. Kind of like how the MM is my go to book for monsters.

When things are in the way you suggest, it might have the coolest new item/quest/terrain/whatever in it, but chances are I'll forget all about it because I can't file it easily. (Both on the shelf and in my brain.)

 

[Obryn]

...with no crunch to support it. What would make the setting awesome if it is just yet another place with paladins and fighters and rogues and wizards and on and on? I can see many ways to make this "interesting". But awesome? Awesome probably requires some limits on classes, modifications to races, etc. And the GSL doesn't allow you to leave stuff out. And the CB doesn't encourage that either.

I know you went on the say new classes are okay. But the majority of the posters in the thread say 'nay'.

I really don't want to play Duelling Suppositions on this. All I can say is that I don't think the GSL will prove as restrictive in practice as it's believed. I also think that a setting with new classes and races could get traction if they are interesting enough, deeply attached to the setting, and if the designer makes them as accessible as possible with printable power cards and the like.

But like I said - we're in speculation-land here. Until I see an example which fits the bill, we can't say either way. The simple fact is that the bar has been raised after all the brilliant OGL products over the last few years, and most 4e players expect a similar level of quality before buying a third-party product.

-O

 

[Jhaelen]

Yeah, no.

See, that's like ordering a big steak dinner, whereas I'm requesting a ton of sample sizes on toothpicks.

That WotC is dong is just saying "Here's an entire city to insert into your campaign". I'm talking about "Here's one to three paragraphs of a small location you can drop into your campaign".

Ah, I see. So you're looking for something like a book dedicated to something similar to the 'Vicious Venues' article series for 3e?

I'm not sure if that concept could carry an entire book, so probably that's really something for 3pp people (I had similar thoughts about your suggestion fo a book with terrain features).

 

[Scribble]

Ah, I see. So you're looking for something like a book dedicated to something similar to the 'Vicious Venues' article series for 3e?

I'm not sure if that concept could carry an entire book, so probably that's really something for 3pp people (I had similar thoughts about your suggestion fo a book with terrain features).

Maybe I am weird? Because these are books I would buy in a heartbeat.

A book filled with terrain and terrain with "features" would be awesome.

You could probably combine a book full of vicious venues, and minor quests, and lairs/hideouts... Kind of like the Ultimate Toolbox style.