Hybrid D&D: Combining editions (especially 3E and 4E)

[Flatus Maximus]

After reading Hackmaster Basic, I've been toying around with incorporating the "count up" combat system into O/A/Basic D&D. I want to keep it as simple as possible, but still have that real-time feel....

 

[ggroy]

A year and a half ago I thought about writing my own "fantasy heartbreaker" starting with the 3.5E SRD, but overhauling the underlying game engine completely with various 4E-isms, such as: base attack bonus of +level/2, fortitude/reflex/will as static combat defenses, healing surges + second wind, simplified skills list, etc ...

After some initial thought and some basic outlines, I decided it wasn't worthwhile anymore to pursue it. It would have been largely pointless.

 

[ggroy]

4e introduced defenses in place of saving throws. I really like that but am wondering if it might not be streamlined a little more.

In my aborted "fantasy heartbreaker" from a year and a half ago, I thought about using a "d20 roll + level/2 + stat_adjustment + misc bonus" mechanic for saving throws.

Instead of using fortitude/reflex/will for saving throws like 3.5E, the ability stats were directly used. For example, a saving throw against a poison would be against a character's constitution. The player would do a "d20 roll + level/2 + con_adjustment + misc bonuses" against a particular DC to save.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I think there was a thread here recently about combining D&D editions. I don't remember it specifically calling out 3e or 4e in the title or OP, but it might've. Anyway, could be worth a look.

 

[Fabio Andrea Rossi]

I am also working on creating a hybrid like this. I think there are a lot of folks out there that want something like it.

I agree, me being one of those

Your "mods" seem interesting, any chance of seing or getting these anytime?

 

[Lanefan]

- damaging or 5-sense illusions (as 1e)

I don't recall what this is?

In 1e, the better illusion spells affected all 5 senses, including touch. The obvious outgrowth of this is that an illusion could make you think you were taking damage...could kill you, in fact...if you believed it.

3e specifically ruled that illusions only affected sight, sound, and smell (but not taste, for some odd reason) and specifically stated that illusions could not cause damage.

I forgot to mention in my original list that I'd add back in Illusionists, and add Necromancers, as their own classes; and otherwise get rid of wizard spell schools (e.g. conjuration, divination, etc.) completely.

Re: initiative and turn-based:

Simultaneous actions:

I don't think this is necessary with the "Ready" action. I don't miss this mechanic.

Re-rolled initiative:

This was one of the things I most hated about 2e. So, it's not for my system.

One thing I just can't stand about a hard-and-fast turn based system is the way everything else completely stops while one character does whatever it does, repeat for each character. Sure it makes for a simpler game, but it's so utterly unrealistic...

The following very simple things cannot happen in turn-based combat without house-ruling:

- 2 or more characters cannot move as a group
- 2 or more characters cannot fire a co-ordinated volley of missiles
- 2 or more foes cannot dramatically run each other through and die together
- an archer covering a bridge cannot fire at someone who is using their move action to cross it (moves cannot be interrupted; the archer has to fire either before the target starts moving or after it finishes moving, but cannot fire while it's moving and exposed)

As for locked-in initiative, it becomes far too easy to plan one's actions based on turn order. Battle is by nature chaotic and unpredictable; the game should reflect this where it can, and re-rolled initiatives are an easy way to do so. (that said, it's much easier if you use a d6 or d10 for initiative instead of a d20, and reduce modifiers to suit)

Side thought: why has no-one official ever proposed a timing system that goes 12 1-second segments to the round, 5 rounds to the minute, and uses d12 for initiative? Just because it's called the d20 system doesn't mean a d20 has to be used for everything...

Lanefan

 

[amnuxoll]

I agree, me being one of those

Your "mods" seem interesting, any chance of seing or getting these anytime?

I plan to make it available when I've got a complete draft. I've invested well over 100 hours so far and probably have 50-100 or so to go before I've got a complete draft. At that point I'll be looking for playtesters so I'll probably drop a post on EnWorld and see if anyone is interested.

:AMN:

 

[Jack7]

This is my setting Merc: (The Worlds Apart) and it is also a hybrid game using various editions of D&D and other games I have liked, as well as several elements of my own creation.

Some components I have adapted from various editions of D&D and other games, some I have modified, others I have invented.

It also has several different versions of complexity, depending upon what the party wants to do, and has different methodologies that the players can use, such as using dice or being diceless in the way it is played.

I like it a lot better than any standard edition of D&D, or other fantasy games as a matter of fact, and I suspect my players do as well. It's been running a long time but it has been altered several times over the years, especially as regards magic, Divine magic, combat, and character classes, which are not really classes, but vocations.

But generally speaking it is extremely streamlined as far as the rules go. I personally think too many rules work out like too many officers, and not enough soldiers. A lot of thinking and arguing goes on, but not much real work. So the less rules the better, all that energy can instead go to world creation, setting, characters, and role-play.

However my setting is also a hybrid Real-World/Mythological setting. And now I'm thinking of creating an old-school Magical Realm setting that will compliment the other two but will be more like AD&D in "magical atmosphere" and in concentration on "exploration." I'll write about that later, when I've got some time, but generally speaking, my opinion about game or edition purity is the same as my opinion on pure-bred animals. They can look awful pretty, but genetically, they're usually weak and duds, and filled with chronic problems. Whereas mongrels, mutts, and cross-breeds, far more often than not, are the superior animals. Or put another way, purebreeds can look or even be awfully good at a small range of specific things, but hybrids tend to be much healthier and far more versatile and capable overall.

Anywho that's my take on the matter. Purebreeds can look awful pretty, but hybrids can actually do things, and adapt well.

And in my book capable, flexible, versatile, and useful is always far superior to just plain pretty.
Pretty is a dime a dozen, and overpriced at that if pretty is all you're packing.
And that's true of just about anything, games included.

Now pretty and capable, that's even better.
But that's a different story.

Anywho I gotta bug.
Heavy day tomorrow.

Good luck with your hybrid.

 

[ppaladin123]

In 1e, the better illusion spells affected all 5 senses, including touch. The obvious outgrowth of this is that an illusion could make you think you were taking damage...could kill you, in fact...if you believed it.

Some illusion spells can actually kill you in 4e (they do "psychic" damage) so they brought that back. That is actually something I hear people complain about on the boards sometime.

 

[Lanefan]

Some illusion spells can actually kill you in 4e (they do "psychic" damage) so they brought that back. That is actually something I hear people complain about on the boards sometime.

Complaining that they brought it back, or that it was taken out in the first place?

Lanefan