What D&Disms have you never liked?

[Garthanos]

Interesting? Sure. But once you make magic available for easy purchase or sale by PCs - the inevitable conclusion is that the same thing is available to NPCs too.

Assumption you are making is that the treasure troves aquired by pcs are also being acquired by npc's (this is indeed required for "readily" purchaseable... element eh).
If a pc to acquire magic item X ends up going on quests for the ingredients because they arent easily aquirable for any amount of gold... that pulls things back to a fantasy flavor I prefer.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

Interesting? Sure. But once you make magic available for easy purchase or sale by PCs - the inevitable conclusion is that the same thing is available to NPCs too. The implications of your power gamer gameist mechanic turns into something far more profound in terms of its rational effects.

Sorry. That's just not the kind of game I've ever wanted to run. So I hate that aspect to D&D. I always have -- and always will.

I was with you right up to here. "power gamist mechanic"? Not quite. It's a game choice that has very little to do with power gaming. It's more a case of allowing players more choice in the game rather than relying on the DM to parcel out magic items.

But, I do agree 100% on the in-game implications of fugible and easily creatable magic item. And it certainly isn't only a problem with magic items. Imagine a world where every cleric can "Purify Food and Drink" several times a day. Suddenly clean drinking water everywhere would have a HUGE impact on a setting.

Assumption you are making is that the treasure troves aquired by pcs are also being acquired by npc's (this is indeed required for "readily" purchaseable... element eh).
If a pc to acquire magic item X ends up going on quests for the ingredients because they arent easily aquirable for any amount of gold... that pulls things back to a fantasy flavor I prefer.

Not quite. At least, not in 3e. The 3e rules say that any item under the GP limit of a community is available for purchase.

The "go on quests to make magic items" isn't part of the rules for 3e. And, by and large, the items which have the greatest impact on the setting aren't these hugely expensive items anyway.

Continual Light in 1e and 2e is free and castable by any 3rd level cleric. A town could have a steady source of very bright light sources within a year. I mentioned Purify Food and Drink - a 0 level spell in 3e - that would have an enormous impact on a D&D setting.

Never mind something like a Lyre of Building (13000 gp) which any decently powerful aristocrat could afford. Or a Decanter of Endless Water (9000 gp). Note, those are the sale prices, just building them is half that.

The list of low cost items and permanent effect spells is pretty long. And, rarely taken into account in published settings. Typically it's just handwaved away with a nod and a wink.

TBH, it doesn't really both me. My suspension of disbelief is healthy enough that I can get past this. But, I can totally see why some people would find this jarring.

 

[Garthanos]

Not quite. At least, not in 3e. The 3e rules say that any item under the GP limit of a community is available for purchase.

The "go on quests to make magic items" isn't part of the rules for 3e. And, by and large, the items which have the greatest impact on the setting aren't these hugely expensive items anyway.

Well I have to admit I skipped 2e and 3e entirely... but even back in the day... the village priest wasn't required to be the same as a PC cleric... hence able to do that continual light you mentioned. A cleric is one flavor of miracle worker and could be very rare if the DM wanted them to be. AD&D did leave it pretty open for the DM to define his world. Seeing gods named in the Players handbook of 4e a little freaked me out.... setting used to invade in more subtle ways.

 

[Hussar]

Well I have to admit I skipped 2e and 3e entirely... but even back in the day... the village priest wasn't required to be the same as a PC cleric... hence able to do that continual light you mentioned. A cleric is one flavor of miracle worker and could be very rare if the DM wanted them to be. AD&D did leave it pretty open for the DM to define his world. Seeing gods named in the Players handbook of 4e a little freaked me out.... setting used to invade in more subtle ways.

Ahh, well, there's a bit of an issue. Of course, even though the village priest wasn't "required" to be a cleric, pretty much every module had him as one. As did many published settings as well. I chalk it up to one of those places where 1e in the rules and 1e in application tended to be pretty far apart and it depended on where you drew your inspiration from.

Because, really, it would only take one cleric to do it. That's 300 Continual Light spells per year (even with generous holidays). If the cleric had a what, 14 wisdom, that was NINE HUNDRED spells per year. For free. Any lord worth his salt would probably figure this one out on his own.

Gods in the base books goes back to 3e actually. I can't remember if 2e did it or not. Been too long since I looked at those books.

 

[Garthanos]

Ahh, well, there's a bit of an issue. Of course, even though the village priest wasn't "required" to be a cleric, pretty much every module had him as one. As did many published settings as well. I chalk it up to one of those places where 1e in the rules and 1e in application tended to be pretty far apart and it depended on where you drew your inspiration from.

Because, really, it would only take one cleric to do it.

I had the vast majority of those with the healing gift killed off in my story line...twas rather harsh of me... but I thought over prevalent cure wounds and resurrections undermined the flavor of things. abstract hit points weren't presented as consistently (as 4e) and I didn't quite get them (I like them now)

Isolated cultures in my game world did have techo level prevalent magics like light spells all over the place... but others didnt because magic was not socially that accepted.... it caused the last wars etc..etc...

 

[Ariosto]

Imagine a world where every cleric can "Purify Food and Drink" several times a day. Suddenly clean drinking water everywhere would have a HUGE impact on a setting.

Everywhere? Surely only where such a character -- in OD&D, one at least 9th level (as "several" > 2) -- chooses so to devote him/herself to such labor.

In OD&D, each casting provides for 12 people (for a single meal, is the interpretation I have usually encountered, but YMMV). In AD&D, it's a cubic foot per level.

Of course, the reference is to members of the cleric character class (and even then, 1st-level clerics cast no spells in OD&D). That does not necessarily include the majority of non-adventuring deacons, priests, pastors, rabbis, monks, shamans or whatever.

In the real world, most human beings need only very basic implements to boil water for drinking, which goes some way toward purification. Until tea became the fashion, I gather that London lived mainly on liquor.

Continual light is a 2nd level m-u spell or 3rd level cleric spell in O/A D&D.

This is one of those cases in which one must ask how special the PCs are.

If a 3rd-level magic-user or 5th-level cleric is as common in Fantasyland as an electrician is in our world, then of course there should be plenty of magical lighting. Magic has tended to be common enough in Elven enclaves, certainly, and ruins reminiscent of the remnants of anciently advanced civilizations that Conan and John Carter encountered are also often lit with glowing jewels.

Otherwise, one might look at how much interest players show in taking on the role of Con Edison.

 

[diaglo]

It might just be me, but I also think that a lot of the rules in Chainmail also seem to be derived from LotR where non-humans are concerned.

well the hobbits, ents, and balrog for sure.

but heck you've got other lit races too like from barsoom.

 

[Garthanos]

This is one of those cases in which one must ask how special the PCs are.

QFT
It is a very key element.... the problem with modules might be that they are designed to be situations with something extraordinary to challenge the pcs... and few of them remember that, when there content wanders in to things which should be just portraying the world at large

 

[jdrakeh]

well the hobbits, ents, and balrog for sure.

but heck you've got other lit races too like from barsoom.

I had to go back and check my copy of Chainmail. When I wrote that last post, I was specifically thinking of the SuperHero being able to 1-hit kill dragons with an arrow (for some reason I thought it was an Elf ability). At any rate, the first thing I thought of when I read that rule in Chainmail was the scene in The Hobbit where Bard the Bowman drops Smaug (admittedly it's not from LotR, but it's still pure strain Tolkien). Perhaps that wasn't intentional, but I'm not aware of any other scene in literature where a hero 1-hit kills a dragon with an arrow (or enchanted arrow).

 

[jdrakeh]

Everywhere? Surely only where such a character -- in OD&D, one at least 9th level (as "several" > 2) -- chooses so to devote him/herself to such labor.

He may be referring to the fact that, for a very long while, lay priests were pretty poorly represented in official TSR adventures and setting materials. Every religious shrine, grotto, or temple, it seemed, was staffed by spell-wielding priests, with nary a lay priest in sight. I mean, ostensibly, lay priests existed, but you wouldn't know that by reading any official game material. Modules just didn't reflect that.

It was the same deal with the rarity of demi-humans. There was a lot of material that said demi-humans were rare, but precious few supplements actually demonstrated that — for a long while there were just droves of demi-humans and variants upon variants upon variants of demi-humans waiting to jump out of every nook and cranny in any given official game setting.