Let's talk about dungeons.

[buddhafrog]

I'm creating my first dungeon in over two decades - for my son's game which brought me back into the hobby. Glad to see this topic.

In our campaign, a Drow faction and the PC's are both trying to complete a set of five magical coins - the last of which is possessed by an ice dragon (just bought the Icingdeath miniature - had to throw him into the story). The dragon's lair can be accessed through the mines under an abandoned great dwarven halls (dungeon). My intent was to make the PC's face the dungeon but also move fast enough to beat the Drow.

Reading this post, it reminded me that, yes, one of the best things about a dungeon is the feeling of timeless exploration. You are right - thanks for the tip. I will have the PC's find a Drow body or two so that they know they are/were present, but not rush the PC's any more than that.

I also agree, mix in the benefit of close examination and exploration (with rewards as in small gems in the eyes of one statue, for me using a statue miniature that will not attack) with the unexpected dangers such as the magical carpet which will suffocate the PC's.

 

[Phyon]

I think Dungeons are awesome greatest place to put puzzles and traps I really like going heavy traps. I usually go for the shorter dungeons so the players are not stuck in the dungeon to long around 1 to 2 sessions beyond that i think it is pretty tough to keep a dungeon from just being a giant boring hack and slash

 

[Garthanos]

A dungeon is a pit that they threw criminals in back in medieval time... not in the slightest bit mysterious or worth investigating... and yup zero treasure.

So how/why did the game use this term to refer to labyrinthine monster lairs ... I have no clue... does anybody?

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Some of my thoughts on dungeons:

The Dungeon as a Mythic Underworld
Creating a Mythic Underworld Dungeon

 

[Garthanos]

No answers there

OK.. your rationalization

"but it is an underworld: a place where the normal laws of reality may not apply, and may be bent, warped, or broken. Not merely an underground site or a lair, not sane, the underworld gnaws on the physical world like some chaotic cancer."

is kind of fun

May have been a failing on our part but we found those laws of reality being broken, preposterous and called them "railroading" and "nonsensical" and "gamey"

 

[Reynard]

May have been a failing on our part but we found those laws of reality being broken, preposterous and called them "railroading" and "nonsensical" and "gamey"

"Railroady": The only way for a dungeon to be railroady is if it is linear. Of course a dungeon is a contained adventure site, but just because it is limited doesn't mean it has to be linear. Passages loop around and reconnect. Secret tunnels allow PCs to bypass some dangers (and perhaps some rewards). There are multiple ways down to the next level. You can come out the way you came in, any time you want.

"Nonsensical": If, in a fantasy game where the setting was created by the folks sitting around the table, a dungeon is "nonsensical" (and this is considered a bad thing) then someone is doing it wrong. I think what you mean is "unrealistic" or "incongruent"? One of my favorite dungeons of all time (and a super linear one at that!) was a mad old hermit's shack -- one 20x20 room (this was 2e. It would have been 10x10 in 3e) -- in which the out door led to a new version of the room every time, and was in fact a sort of "stairwell" to the land of Fey (the hermit being, in reality, the god of chaos and magic, though he didn't know it at the time). A room where gravity reversed. A room (completely) full of water. A room with funhouse mirrors that forced a charicaturization (in appearance and stats) of the PCs. A room where everyone's mind moved one body to the left. A room with a leprechaun and a Deck of Many Things. It was the most nonsensical things ever, and it was a blast.

"Gamey": Whether any given adventure -- site based dungeon or event based political intrigue -- is "gamey" or not depends on the players, the GM, the rules set and how they engage that rules set. Games with detailed social mechanics can turn a fun bit of roleplay with the barmaid into a "gamey" experience and dungeon exploration with the battlemat tossed out the window can be very "narrative". I tend, myself, to aim for simulation, but none is better than another and they all mix to one degree or another.

 

[Garthanos]

"Railroady": The only way for a dungeon to be railroady is if it is linear. Of course a dungeon is a contained adventure site, but just because it is limited doesn't mean it has to be linear. Passages loop around and reconnect. Secret tunnels allow PCs to bypass some dangers (and perhaps some rewards). There are multiple ways down to the next level. You can come out the way you came in, any time you want.

The doors were contrived to shut behind you ... and the DM had blades cut through
the jack ass we put in the doorway to give ourselves options... we called it half horsie
and wonder which half was in and which was out..

"Nonsensical": If, in a fantasy game where the setting was created by the folks sitting around the table, a dungeon is "nonsensical" (and this is considered a bad thing) then someone is doing it wrong. I think what you mean is "unrealistic" or "incongruent"? One of my favorite dungeons of all time (and a super linear one at that!) was a mad old hermit's shack -- one 20x20 room (this was 2e. It would have been 10x10 in 3e) -- in which the out door led to a new version of the room every time, and was in fact a sort of "stairwell" to the land of Fey (the hermit being, in reality, the god of chaos and magic, though he didn't know it at the time). A room where gravity reversed. A room (completely) full of water. A room with funhouse mirrors that forced a charicaturization (in appearance and stats) of the PCs. A room where everyone's mind moved one body to the left. A room with a leprechaun and a Deck of Many Things. It was the most nonsensical things ever, and it was a blast.

"Gamey": Whether any given adventure -- site based dungeon or event based political intrigue -- is "gamey" or not depends on the players, the GM, the rules set and how they engage that rules set. Games with detailed social mechanics can turn a fun bit of roleplay with the barmaid into a "gamey" experience and dungeon exploration with the battlemat tossed out the window can be very "narrative". I tend, myself, to aim for simulation, but none is better than another and they all mix to one degree or another.

The game felt like pac-man with puzzles from the era of pacman being one of the few videogames ;-) ... I am not sure there were little white marbles in the path. Artificially constrained movement ... looting what you killed along the path... pac man.

Adventure doesnt have to be like that... but the "dungeons" almost seem like ... that is the plan stan.

 

[Reynard]

The doors were contrived to shut behind you ... and the DM had blades cut through
the jack ass we put in the doorway to give ourselves options... we called it half horsie
and wonder which half was in and which was out..



The game felt like pac-man with puzzles from the era of pacman being one of the few videogames ;-) ... I am not sure there were little white marbles in the path. Artificially constrained movement ... looting what you killed along the path... pac man.

Adventure doesnt have to be like that... but the "dungeons" almost seem like ... that is the plan stan.

I can't quite tell from your post -- did you only engage in a dungeon adventure once, 30 years ago?

 

[Gilladian]

I'm designing a little 10 room dungeon right now, for a moderately low level solo game (2 gestalt characters, 3.5 e, 3rd level).

The dungeon is NOW occupied by smugglers. They are bringing in weapons and armor, moving them out of the city to bandits, and trading for the supplies the bandits steal, which are moved back into the dungeon, eventually relocated to a "friendly" merchant's warehouse, and shipped out as "legitimate" goods.

This dungeon is under a moderately small coastal town, which is currently under martial law. It connects up to the town's sewers, and to a couple other small dungeon areas, which the smugglers are NOT using.

This dungeon was once used by an evil cult, but before that it was a military outpost for a now-lost empire. So you see, there's room for a whole LOT to go on!

 

[pogre]

I currently have a largish Dwarven ruins site as our campaign "dungeon." The thing I like about it is it has become a fallback adventuring place. If the players get tired of politics in the city or one of my latest adventuring hooks does not interest them - they head off to the dungeon. Sometimes that is what they are in a mood to do.