Improved Two Weapon Defense and Double Weapons

[Herzog]

Can you use Improved (and greater) Two Weapon Defense with a double weapon?

Two Weapon Defense lists:

When wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes), you gain a +1 shield bonus to your AC.

Improved Two Weapon Defense lists:

When wielding two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes), you gain a +2 shield bonus to your Armor Class.

Double Weapon info lists:

A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon

 

[airwalkrr]

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Fighting with a double weapon is considered fighting with two weapons for practically all intents and purposes. Both sides of the weapon carry their own enhancements (i.e. one side could have a +2 enhancement while the other is a +3 flaming enhancement). All feats and special abilities that relate to two-weapon fighting work with a double weapon. And so on.

 

[irdeggman]

When using a double weapon you either are fighting with 2 weapons or with a weapon wielded with 2 hands (your choice).



From the SRD

Double Weapons: Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaffs, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.

The character can also choose to use a double weapon two handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

 

[Herzog]

@airwalkrr: Then why the explicit mention of double weapons in Two Weapon Defense?

Note that I'd like to agree with you, I'm just trying to find arguments to counter any objections my DM might have.

@irdeggman: thank you, but I knew that. I assume you are referring to not getting the bonus when you use the double weapon with 2 hands. (although Two Weapon Defense does not make that distinction. mmm.)

 

[FEADIN]

Think they omited the double weapon phrase, if you're a "pure" RAW player (I am not one) it won't work.

 

[Dandu]

No logical reason for it to not work.

Incidentally, it's a poor feat.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

No logical reason for it to not work.

Incidentally, it's a poor feat.

Extremely poor feat. Much better off with Improved Buckler Defense or (even better, if you can wait for it) an Animated shield.

I houseruled Two-Weapon Defense so that as you gained extra attacks with ITWF and GTWF, the shield bonus automatically scaled, no need to spend an extra 2 feats. Even with THAT houserule, I'm pretty sure it's never worth taking.

 

[Herzog]

Ok, I could ignore one reply stating it's a poor feat, but two is too much.

First off, the campaign is a very low-magic, semi-historical setting.
We're currently in about 40 BC, trying to organise the various germanic(?) tribes to stop fighting eachother and stand up against the roman empire.
We have little to no magic items (unless I'm mistaken, the only magic item is a single +1 sword with the ghost touch ability).
The lack of magic items is deliberate, as we try to keep from using 'high-magic' items and spells. (example: lightning storm is OK, lightning bolt is not)
So, no animated shields. Also, the attack bonusses from opponents rise with the number of class levels they have (as do ours) while we have virtually no means to increase our AC.

Second, the guy looking to take the feat is fighting with a quarterstaff, and regularly uses the fighting defensively option to increase his AC.
He already has Two Weapon Defense. Increasing his AC with this feat seems like a good option to me. On the other hand, I haven't looked at Improved Buckler Defense (were is it from?) although no-one has ever used bucklers in campaigns I've played in or DMed. A bit of an oversight, no doubt, but there you have it.

Last but not least: why, objectively, is Improved Two Weapon Defense a poor feat? It increases AC, more so even for someone who uses Fighting Defensively. That may be a sub-optimal way of combat (no idea actually), but how does that make the feat 'poor'?

Unless there is a significantly better feat to take to improve your AC?

 

[Dandu]

Ok, I could ignore one reply stating it's a poor feat, but two is too much.

And I say it's too few!

Last but not least: why, objectively, is Improved Two Weapon Defense a poor feat? It increases AC, more so even for someone who uses Fighting Defensively. That may be a sub-optimal way of combat (no idea actually),

You can't hit me! I can't hit you either, so I'm going to stand here useless because I can't power project, and you can ignore me and go around me to murder my teammates while I do nothing to stop it!

but how does that make the feat 'poor'?

For the same reason that an AK-47 that fires blanks is a poor combat weapon.

Unless there is a significantly better feat to take to improve your AC?

Wasn't Improved Buckler Defense mentioned in the post right above yours?

Also, Combat Expertise. Improved Two Weapon Defense requires 2 feats to get a +4 to AC when fighting defensively, incurring a -4 penalty in the process.

Combat Expertise is one feat that allows you to take a penalty of up to -5 in exchange for an equal bonus to your AC.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

First off, the campaign is a very low-magic, semi-historical setting.
We're currently in about 40 BC, trying to organise the various germanic(?) tribes to stop fighting eachother and stand up against the roman empire.
We have little to no magic items (unless I'm mistaken, the only magic item is a single +1 sword with the ghost touch ability).
The lack of magic items is deliberate, as we try to keep from using 'high-magic' items and spells. (example: lightning storm is OK, lightning bolt is not)
So, no animated shields. Also, the attack bonusses from opponents rise with the number of class levels they have (as do ours) while we have virtually no means to increase our AC.

Would you be surprised if I told you that your campaign is drastically different from what the rules were written to support and thus anyone replying to this thread would not assume the drastic level of low magic the DM instituted? Obviously, the particular campaign changes things a lot. I still think Two Weapon Defense is a poor feat, though. Maybe not "worse than Toughness," as I'd classify it in a regular magic items allowed game, but certainly on the very low power end still.

Second, the guy looking to take the feat is fighting with a quarterstaff, and regularly uses the fighting defensively option to increase his AC.
He already has Two Weapon Defense. Increasing his AC with this feat seems like a good option to me. On the other hand, I haven't looked at Improved Buckler Defense (were is it from?) although no-one has ever used bucklers in campaigns I've played in or DMed. A bit of an oversight, no doubt, but there you have it.

1. Improved Buckler Defense is from Complete Warrior. As for "is it better?" In a game with magic items, absolutely. Without the ability to enhance the buckler, maybe not. Since then it's just +1 AC and causing you to take -1 on your off-hand attacks. Now, with PHB 2's feat for +1 AC with a particular shield (Shield Focus iirc) and the feat that follows it that lets you use your shield bonus for touch AC and as a bonus to resist combat maneuvers like grapple (name escapes me, sorry)...Improved Buckler Defense could theoretically still be the better option, even without the prospect of enhancing the buckler, but the TWD feat chain might actually edge it out power-wise.
2. If he uses a Quarterstaff and frequently fights defensively, PLEASE tell me he grabbed the Quickstaff weapon style feat (also in Complete Warrior)! It's +3 AC for basically just doing what he's doing already.

Last but not least: why, objectively, is Improved Two Weapon Defense a poor feat? It increases AC, more so even for someone who uses Fighting Defensively. That may be a sub-optimal way of combat (no idea actually), but how does that make the feat 'poor'?

Unless there is a significantly better feat to take to improve your AC?

Yes, in a regular campaign with magic items, a buckler can be cheaply enhanced to provide more benefit with Imp. Buckler Defense, ring of Force Shield is affordable after a while, and later still animated shield is just plain better in terms of both the AC bonus and the "cost" (unless you really find yourself with more feats than you know what to do with, an issue i've NEVER had, spending a portion of your gp on an animated shield will inevitably become the more efficient option at some point, since wealth by level is not even linear, nevermind the fact it is on continuous increase).

Even in your particular game, consider Improved Natural Armor. Can be taken repeatedly for lots of AC if you wanted. And adds to AC in all the same situations a shield bonus would, for the same amount. No pre-reqs. Granted, it doesn't give double bonus fighting defensively, but it is also a constant benefit independent of whether you get disarmed or what have you. I'd call it about equal to TWD, and is much easier to obtain.

That's core-only. The more splats allowed in your game, the more alternative feats to TWD I could probably name.

EDIT: My own houserules messed up my reply there. Imp. Natural Armor does require you to have natural armor. In every group I've ever been in, we just extrapolated from the barksin spell text about creatures without natural armor having natural armor +0 and allowed PCs to take the feat. By a RAW reading, you can't.